TattieOct 26

"But if testosterone doesn't cause violence then why are cis guys so violent?"
Grimaces

Ok look. I'm sure I once believed this, so I'll treat the question in good faith. It's a common pseudoscientific dogma, one spread by high school science teachers and shitty "feminist" YouTubers alike. But it's bollocks. 1/

Show threadTattieOct 26

What you've got to understand about this is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We tell boys "oh you can't help being violent, it's just in your nature", and then they go out and do violence, and we say "well this just proves it".

It's a core part of what we call the "boys will be boys" phenomenon, where we forgive any manner of misbehaviour from boys and men, and shift the responsibility onto women and girls. We blame what a girl was wearing, or the fact that women keep refusing to go out with some dude. Or we blame mothers. It never seems to land on the guys themselves. 2/

Show threadTattieOct 26

I remember when this was first pointed out to me years ago, and then suddenly I started seeing it everywhere. Even progressive female friends were perpetuating it. I was flabbergasted.

"Boys will be boys" is insidious, and "testosterone causes violence" is the scientific-sounding gloss of it. 3/

Show threadTattieOct 26

When a human being, of any gender, is allowed to operate without accountability, they go nucking futs. (Technical term.) Look at Musk. Look at Trump. Look at the manosphere.

They've got to be told "no". And they've got to learn to understand it. 4/

Show threadTattieOct 26

I was never a man, but I had standard male testosterone levels for decades. I was never violent. I wasn't afforded the toxic forgiveness for my misdeeds that a lot of men around me were.

Testosterone may make you hungry, horny, hot, and hairy. But it doesn't make you violent.
Fin/

Show threadNoodlemazOct 26

@Tattie are you aware of this work?
Famous researcher in sociology circles.
https://youtu.be/LpdNEd8fWcw?si=C4HdKnGQzjguVFM1

Edit: Sapolsky, shown in thumb, is a reaearcher/sociologist who works on this question and concluded that testosterone isn't what makes violent men violent. Studies of animals and people show that's not the case.
He's in textbooks etc and has a Nature paper (£), if someone has an accessible article on his 'Trouble with Testosterone' work that isn't AI shite, pls do share.

Robert Sapolsky - How testosterone influences behavior

YouTube
Show threadTattieOct 26
@noodlemaz I'm not gonna watch some random fuckin YouTube video, so why don't you summarise it for me so I can know whether you need blocking or not?
Show threadNoodlemaz

@Tattie sorry, his nature paper is called The Trouble with Testosterone and it's not free to read so I didn't think linking that would be useful.
His point is that testosterone is a permissive hormone not one that causes violence. I tried to find a summary but it's mostly AI shit coming up, I'll try to look later. That is actually him speaking though, the researcher, not some random.

Ah, also a book. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20668.The_Trouble_with_Testosterone_and_Other_Essays_on_the_Biology_of_the_Human_Predicament

The Trouble with Testosterone and Other Essays on the B…

As a professor of biology and neuroscience at Stanford …

Goodreads
Oct 26 at 12:59pmWeb
Show threadNoodlemazOct 26
@Tattie I'm at a conference and trying not to spend all my time on my phone, I studied a bit of sociology of gender a few years back and his work featured, seemed relevant. Block me if you like though, didn't realise it wasn't a thread open to chat.
Show threadErik Play2LearnOct 26
@noodlemaz @Tattie its not your job to summarize the video for someone demanding so. Thanks for sharing your input. More context would be nice. Otherwise everyone can choose by themselves if they want to watch it or not.
Show threadNoodlemazOct 26
@fallbackerik really bizarre and hostile reply from them when I was literally just trying to share relevant work/thought on the subject. Wevs.
Guess not everyone is on social networks to... Network
Show threadweird hermOct 26

@noodlemaz @fallbackerik if you throw a link into a (what could be a heated) thread, you should give an idea of what it’s about so people can decide to watch. Whenever someone posts about T here in a positive way, lots of people pile on to tell us T is “poison” so we’re already on the alert for bad actors.

When I saw your reply, I didn’t know if the video was refuting or backing up what she was saying. It’s valid to not want to watch a video that could be trying to stir up shit- what you included didn’t give any indication of the video content. I even opened the link and the description didn’t tell me what his stance was. Just provide a bit of context about the video if you want people to watch it.

Show threadTattieOct 26

@weirdofhermiston thanks for the backup. I'm pretty negative on YouTube generally; it's pretty easy for anyone present themself as this impressive expert on that platform, especially if they're a cis white dude.

Want to go all appeal to authority on me? Chuck a journal article at me; at least those come with abstracts.

But I'd much rather someone take the time to craft their actual thoughts, not just "watch this", "read this". I don't take homework assignments from strangers. 🤷‍♀️

Show threadconfusion matrix   Oct 26
@Tattie @weirdofhermiston Sapolsky has a series of lectures on behavioral biology published on Stanford's yt channel, and his stance is (and he brings tons of proof on it) that testosterone doesn't cause violence. It can increase probability of violent behavior among people who are prone to violence already by different factors, however. It does it because it increases probability of socially beneficial behaviors, so if violence at that moment will be socially beneficial for the person, it will increase it, but if being nice will be socially beneficial it will increase that. It's a quite nuanced issue. His stance has a lot of critiques because it goes against typical 'testosterone causes violence'.
Show threadTattieOct 26
@kaateeh thanks for taking the time to explain, that is interesting.
@weirdofhermiston
Show threadErik Play2LearnOct 26
@noodlemaz and I told you what you did is good enough. Don't feel pressured to do more.
Show threadTattieOct 26
@noodlemaz @fallbackerik and you've both earned blocks.
I don't owe anyone "debate" and I certainly don't need to watch anyone's random YouTube video that they've dumped on my posts. Let alone some AI brainrot.
I took the time to write up my post, you can take your time to put your own thoughts in your own words in response, if they're worth half a damn.
I am happy to be considered "hostile" to this sort of social media "engagement". Bye.
Show threadbryn Oct 26

yeah people are getting really heated here and are refusing any idea that could be in opposition… which is fine, i think it’s fair to state something without wanting to debate it. but getting hostile while talking about how testosterone doesn’t make you aggressive… okay

anyway, so much science has proven that testosterone can increase aggressiveness in many mammals

literally isn’t an issue though. aggression is a necessary emotion. it’s a response to injustice and is a driver to defend yourself and loved ones. that’s a good thing.

many things cause / increase the risk of aggression. testosterone is just one hormone.

acknowledging that testosterone can increase aggression isn’t problematic or excusing violence. just because you feel aggression does not mean you have to act on it.

you can and must emotionally regulate through hormones. if you can’t, you can choose to take medications to help balance those things.


#it’s-almost-like-two-different-things-can-be-true-at-the-same-time