Mastodawn

Bully of Bullies, Inc

As the person that founded the most high profile Black instance in the fedi and still develops safety tools for this environment, there is still a lot of resistance in the fedi in accepting how massively it failed Black and Brown internet folks.

I don’t mind the technical discussions between ATProtocol and Activity Pub because they both have stuff to learn from each other, but the fedi damaged reputation isn’t due to technical concerns.

The fedi has a *terrible* reputation to the point people are choosing a corporate option they know is bad over a free one.

Folks really need to think about what that means.

I regularly talk to folks who left the fedi and they *consistently* say the bigoted harassment they faced on the fedi is the *worst they’ve experienced* online. These aren’t people that are unfamiliar with how digital communities work. These are veteran digital citizens that are accustomed to bad faith engagement on the web.

Fortunately, the rise of Blacksky and other independent installs are rendering Bluesky irrelevant as it continues to enshitify, but the fedi needs to accept its utter failure in regards to safety and moderation is a central reason why we are talking about Bluesky at all.

I do believe it’s possible for the fedi to still be a major player in social media.

But it has to be real about why many people believe Bluesky is the lesser evil.

Legit_Spaghetti Sep 15, 2025

I do believe it’s possible for the fedi to still be a major player in social media. But it has to be real about why many people believe Bluesky is the lesser evil.

I see bigoted shit on here all the time, and I agree. Big parts of the fediverse are terrible at taking people seriously when they say "Hey, we're experiencing harassment and you need to do something about this."

Nobody thinks they're the problem. That's one thing that needs to change.

pelontrix Sep 15, 2025

if i may ask, can you elaborate on how badly fedi as a whole has failed black and brown communities?

#percy.txt #this-is-not-intended-to-be-a-bad-faith-question #i-genuinely-want-to-know-more-so-that-i-can-try-and-make-things-better-for-others.

John Wilson Sep 15, 2025

@pelontrix I’ll chime in: Fedi design means that not every user can see every post. If a black person winds up on a poorly moderated instance, they will get flooded with nazi, hateful shit. When they try to tell other people about it, those folks say “what are you talking about, I don’t see anything” because those other folks are on well moderated instances.

Instead of prioritizing tools to combat this problem, folks said “oh, this is just how it is, pick a better server”

Joris Meys Sep 15, 2025

@crazybutable @pelontrix I can see how that's an issue.

I struggle to come up with tools to combat this problem. Tools to deal with general harassment are quite well developed imho, a.o. given the large trans community that sought refuge on the fediverse.

So I wonder how the experience is different for one group compared to another marginalized group. Bcs, as you say, I do believe the issue is there, but I cannot see it due to the server I'm on. Honest question, trying to understand here.

John Wilson Sep 15, 2025

@JorisMeys @pelontrix white trans communities can be a source of bigotry. If that sounds preposterous, ask why these communities have no black trans members.

I don’t have time right now to get to the details but I’ve been around the Fedi long enough to see white trans communities melt down when confronted with evidence of how their actions are harming black Fedi members. They take mild criticism as an affront to their fundamental identity and it turns into an entire shitshow

Joris Meys Sep 15, 2025

@crazybutable @pelontrix oh, I'm well aware trans people are people (and hence susceptible to the same flaws as everyone else ;-) ). I was just curious how the toolset that serves them well, doesn't work for black fedi members.

Or otherwise, what tools would the black community need to find themselves a home on the fediverse?

John Wilson Sep 15, 2025

@JorisMeys @pelontrix

This, to start with: https://mastodon.social/@mcc/115204939925541756

pelontrix Sep 15, 2025

Thanks much. I'm probably gonna see if I can't follow that user (provided mastodon doesn't throw shenanigans) - their post on this is very enlightening.

John Wilson Sep 15, 2025

@JorisMeys @pelontrix only bringing that up because you wanted to know the difference between how minority communities see the Fedi. Not all trans communities are like this, obviously. It’s complicated.

T🎃N Sep 15, 2025

Leading off with a hashtag to join your instance is not great good-fairh indicator.

If you genuinely want to know, you need to start with some reading of areOh' past posts and site. Not asking them to rehash and repeat everything for you.

Neville Park Sep 15, 2025

@are0h I'm hopeful that future developments might make local-only posting and opt-in networks easy to set up, so admins have to actively choose who to federate with and people can choose more intentionally curated spaces.

Platforms like Tumblr supporting federation (still planned, AFAIK, I guess depending on whether Mullenweg feels the need to power-trip and melt down over something) could also potentially be an opportunity for ActivityPub to stay in the game.

But I think if communities en masse adopt a truly open standard, it'll have to be something that comes after ActivityPub.

(Personally I think it is worth staying here and doing my own very small part because it can serve as an important "last resort" when other options fail.)

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@nev There are plenty of opportunities for AP to learn and grow.

The biggest question is does it have the will to do so.

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h hello. Was the choice of BlueSky a technical one or something else?

I would think there would be more tech flexibility choosing ActivityPub and not federation with the racist fedi than with building on BlueSky's land. Are there any blog posts or other information documenting this history?

Why choose ATproto over ActivityPub?

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@UkiahSmith It’s impossible to have a productive convo if you’re going to ignore what I say and ask questions that have been answered.

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h I greatly apologize, I haven't seen the answers and if they were in the post I replied to then I didn't understand.

I am not sealion-ing.

How can I prove my good faith curiosity?

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@UkiahSmith I literally said people are choosing Bluesky after experiencing the worst instances of harassment in their online lives.

I have no idea how you can ignore that part and say you don’t understand.

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h to my understanding that explains the exodus but not the choice of bluesky vs building a separate ActivityPub world

I was imagining myself in a similar situation. I would have chosen to use ActivityPub and to preemptively block all other activity pub instances. Then slowly add allow instance that we good actors

I understand my little thought is far removed from the reality of the situation. I'm curious on technical decisions

I do not in any way dismiss the experience of black fedi

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h thank you for taking the time to reply to me

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h I meant to say I under stand that people were "choosing Bluesky after experiencing the worst instances of harassment in their online lives".

The part I didn't know about was why BlueSky was chosen instead of other platforms or technologies.

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@UkiahSmith Because it’s easier to use and has better safety tools in the fedi.

And to be quite honest, it’s just not as anti-Black as the fedi is.

It’s an easy choice for a lot of people that don’t have technical backgrounds despite the issues with the platform.

Ukiah Danger Smith Sep 15, 2025

@are0h that makes sense to me. BlueSky has lower friction to use.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I see now how my question was worded in a way that conflated ActivityPub the protocol and fedi/Mastodon the existing community.

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@UkiahSmith Just be aware of how many times white folks have suggested to just build our own communities on here when there are active groups in the fedi that specifically go after Black folks and safety tools in the fedi are basically non existent.

Appreciate the fact being white in the fedi is generally the best defense against harassment because of that context.

MidgePhoto Sep 15, 2025

@are0h
I had a communication from a photographer who said he was leaving photog.social because of that.
I'd no idea (nor interest) that he was black.
Looking back at his timeline, the only reason anyone could know he was black (or polychrome) would have been him separately telling them.

Puzzled me.

The Fediverse - unlike BlueXInstaBook - seems designed to support entirely disjoint networks, if one chose. Or I suppose filter between them.

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle Sep 15, 2025

@are0h, I guess the following observation is in line with "the Fedi damaged reputation isn’t due to technical concerns".

Sometimes I see an English speaker complain about how Black people are (not) welcome in the Fedi, but never someone from Brazil. FWIW, I explicitly asked if Brazilian people were seeing this problem, and got no response.

I guess, there's something the English-speaking Fedi could be doing differently, but I'm not gonna pretend I know what.

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@lffontenelle So because your anecdotal experience and casual effort didn’t get a response, that means it doesn’t exist?

This feels like a very disingenuous attempt to dismiss an issue you don’t care about.

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle Sep 15, 2025

@are0h No, it doesn't mean (that's why the FWIW). What I meant was, if the issue is not the same everywhere, then perhaps whatever changes from context to context is something that might help improve the situation elsewhere. But, as I said, I don't pretend to know what it is.

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@lffontenelle Yeah, that’s cool, but that context can be personal as well, especially from someone that can pass as white.

So saying you haven’t seen it based on your anecdotal context is an example of that’s not helpful at all.

And for us to get anywhere in this convo, you need to be aware of the context you project if you want to help.

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle Sep 15, 2025

@are0h is there some article that talks about racism in the fediverse? i hear a lot about that but never about what happens concretely

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 15, 2025

@zy Just say you don’t believe it happens unless someone white says it.

And you can find that on your own.

Enjoy your day.

@are0h i didn't say that because that's very not what i'm saying. i'm saying i don't know what happens and why it is specific to the fediverse. and i'm asking here instead of google because i can trust better the article or the thing that way and because i'm probably not the only one interested. assuming is uncool

@are0h also most people don't have their face in pp so judging by the face would be hard lmao

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 16, 2025

@zy Which is why I don’t make judgements on people’s avi.

Words and actions make intentions very clear.

Take responsibility for your own education and then we can talk.

Until then, stop wasting my time.

Bully of Bullies, Inc Sep 16, 2025

@zy Black folks have been talking about it for years, so if you don’t know by now you don’t want to know.

People that are actually interested do the work you’re refusing to do, so assuming everyone is like is you quite ironic considering how ‘uncool’ you think it is.

Furbland's Very Cool Mastodon™Sep 19, 2025

@are0h this, 1000 times over. the first step towards fixing our mistakes is recognizing we made them to begin with. thankfully everyone i've met around these parts seems to share the same mentality, hopefully that mentality continues to spread.