@benroyce Where I disagree is "we're paying them [ukrainians] to risk their life some more".

They abolished the conscientious objector, so the state is actually using money to force their citizen to risk their life for national defense.

I think it's important to ponder this "small detail" as Europe are removing pacifist Ukrainian refugees back to the nationalist slaughter.

War is hell ; and if other country want to fight, then don't support forcing other to fight in their stead, wtf.

@otyugh

ukrainians are being genocided by russia

it seems you are french? france would do exactly the same thing in a time of being invaded to erase all french culture, identity, society, to genocide france

this is normal

the draft is a standard of every country in a time of war

"the state is actually using money to force their citizen to risk their life for national defense."

and russia is paying people to unnecessarily mass murder for ethnofascist imperialism. does that bother you?

@benroyce Both bother me. No pacifist should be forced to fight. Both are deeply injust to me. I'm sure france would do the same and I would condemn and fight it the same.

Fuck weapons seller, all the nation that allow their armed nationalist to rope pacifist in their war.

If your citizen want to flee, let fucking them go you maniac. You would die for your country ? YOU DO YOU YOURSELF ALONE.

@otyugh

you live in a free society, but you won't do anything do defend it. there's a lot of such fools like you in the west. as fascism creeps outward and inward, the clueless sit there patting themselves on their back about their "moral superiority"

perhaps to the very end, when a fascist machine guns you, laughing, you all alone

because you denigrated all those dying for your right to judge them. as they die for you

do you have the faintest fucking clue of what is going on in the world?

@benroyce I would stoop as low as to assassinate a weapon dealer. From both side.

I don't think war can be won, I just think weapons dealer and leader can be killed. Not their foolish soldiers. From both sides.

I feel you're missing the point, I hate my free country that thrive on doing proxy war. Like ukraine is. France provides weapons to russia big time. We should be killing our weapon sellers for that. But here they are gaining big money.

@otyugh

ah

"BoTh SiDeS tHe SaMe"

the brave call of the ignorant

do you have the faintest fucking clue what russia is doing?

@benroyce I know they're the oppressors and ukraine the oppressed, yes. I didn't said both sides are the same.

I still feel like forcing citizens to fight is bullshit tho.

@otyugh

thank you

merci

so as russia genocides ukraine, what should ukraine be doing? what should europe be doing? does anyone, including yourself, have a luxury of sitting it out? or, much worse, sitting it out and casting aspersions on those who are defending them and equivocating about who is in the right and who is in the wrong?

@benroyce I feel like all the countries in the world should do something about a big scale disarmament to prevent genocides from happening again and just... Focus on assassinating all belligerent leaders with... Assassins. Highly specialized scary assassins, not warriors killing warriors. Killing leaders only.

Track and kill all dictators. And fucking disarm all army. That's it

Not forcing to enroll innocent citizens who just want to live.

@otyugh

i support your thesis and only have two complaints

1. fascists are very aware of their security, and assassinating them is exceedingly difficult

2. the residents of ukraine may also support your thesis, but at the same time, they need armaments so that they are not murdered

the disarmament you seek is possible. but first you need to disarm those seeking to kill you in a creeping frontline of ethnofascist imperialism. and you need to disarm them, with arms. a paradox

@benroyce (There is also the way of empowering pacifists/resistant on the genocidal side by giving them tool, knowledge, and support to help sabotage their own leaders : I feel it's often a better route to "outsider meddling".)

And sure, I would agree to arm voluntary soldiers for defensive war, but I wouldn't strap it on unwilling people, it still haunt me to think about it. International betray you by having your country ablaze, and then your country make it even worse forcing you to fight...

@otyugh

the draft is a normal part of every country. that someone believes they have the luxury of not defending their society is a commentary on the cluelessness of that individual, not an evil of society

clarifying my words: for defensive wars, not offensive ones

so no

ukraine needs to have a draft

and if enough think like you, and ukraine falls, then europe is next

and you will perhaps be drafted

what will you do? run?

to where? and then that place is attacked next

do you see?

@benroyce >what will you do? run?

I will. I totally will. I'll flee all the way. And if I'm caught I'll sabotage and assassinate the most cowardly way the one that forced my hand.

I think if the citizens on the oppressors side did it too, everyone would be in a safer place !

I think it's the only way : people should fight leaders, not the soldiers.

In gaza arming resistance is not even an option. But we had many opportunity to arrest Israelis leaders. 4 times in france.