Shafik Yaghmour
John Regehr@shafik freudian typo?
I got nervous when I saw your reply but that is not too bad a mixup.
Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸
petros
Paul in de Emiraten@shafik as long as women trade in a millionaire for a billionaire I’m afraid it’s kinda difficult to have enough :-)
Half jokingly; would men, really be so majesticly eager to make more and more money if women would be totally uninterested in the amount of money you make or have?
It’s biology, not economy (let alone ‘the economy of enough’ a popular direction of thought in Europe).
I think that is rather the point, it is the lack of perspective that brings us unhappiness.
Major Denis Bloodnok@Paul_Harts @shafik Peter Thiel is gay, so this kind of falls at the first hurdle.
Alex@shafik on a very related note to this I cannot recommend enough anything by Martyna Linartas in the topic of why inequality is a much bigger problem than most of us realize.
Don't know how many things she published in English. Her book "Unverdiente Ungleichheit" is fantastic. She also helped create the website https://ungleichheit.info/en (which is available in English).
Those are well done graphics, thank you for sharing.
christina b
nicopap@shafik Thank you for sharing.
Recently I had this thought: aren't rich people jealous that poor people seem more happy than them, with less? Isn't all this cruelty toward the poor motivated by jealousy? "I am not happy, therefore you can't!"
It's obvious people like Musk are sad sad sad people, desperate even. And don't know how to find happiness. The truth is that wealth is their curse, and the ultimate source of their sadness.
Magical Cat@shafik Golden toilet found during search at home of head of road police of Stavropol region comes to mind. (closest analogy for USA would be "sheriffs boss" of Texas living in luxurious villa or mansion costing 10-20 millions USD). Basically, sickness of never having enough, sickness of inability to feel "enough" is strongly encouraged these days, for decades. Navalny investigations shown plenty of examples of what once Sun called "sickening luxury".
myrmepropagandistHave written a book as good as "Catch-22"
Wealth like Joseph Heller described. (see OP)
third option/ other / etc
Poll ended at .
73 crafty cats and 3 pikas@futurebird @shafik I voted for the 3rd option. If I could die knowing I was as kind and loving as possible, and did as much as I could with the gifts I'd been handed in life, that'd be best. If somehow I could be reunited with loved ones and kitties OTRB, even better.
Kris Dreemurr (they/them) of the Pnictogen Wing@ricosuave @futurebird @shafik I agree, that's the third option: I'd rather perish thinking I'd helped people than writing a Great Novel ~Chara
Coolcoder360@futurebird @shafik third option: being able to have a quiet life away from hustle and bustle without worry.
Victor W Allen@futurebird it's difficult to find things he actually said instead of things he wrote, but Terry Pratchett once said something about being able to afford to make art that wasn't about the money... That's what I want, which I suppose is what Heller meant by "enough"
LevkaTerry Pratchett's political analysis is spot on. The upper classes are too stupid, corrupt, and lazy to run a society. What we really need is a benevolent autocrat. Unfortunately, benevolent autocrats can only be found in the sort of places where also found are, dragons, wizards, talking dogs and honest cops.
Allan Chow@futurebird @shafik goddamn. I honestly can't say. Catch-22 is so good.
@futurebird @shafik catch-22 emphasizes to me just how much i have absolutely no control over and what i can do for myself and few others, i am grateful.
Ben Rosengart@futurebird @shafik I’m not sure, but I want to complicate the question a little bit.
In a society which offloads all types of risk to individuals, “enough” is elusive. One needs fabulous wealth merely to be confident of weathering ordinary storms: unemployment, an expensively sick family member, divorce. I see this as part of the system’s coercive nature.
@futurebird @shafik also I’ve probably said this before but Joseph Heller babysat my mom
llewellythe thing is that I don't believe this story. It's too neat. It's too pat. Somebody knew Vonnegut and Heller knew each other, and made the rest up. Conveniently, it didn't appear until after they were both dead and could no longer object.
oh, and the story is even put in the mouth of a third guy who is also dead. Who is a founder of an investment firm that makes its bilk off of people who definitely don't behave in accordance with the sentiment supported by the fic, but definitely want the rest of us to think they admire the sentiment. Vanguard sure got their money's worth from this bit of ad copy.
It could be entirely apocryphal, can't find anything definitive.
It is a good story, so I imagine folks will be sharing it for a long time.
I will confess I've shared an awful lot of nice-sounding stories I shouldn't have. And I agree there's no way to stop it from spreading. But, I felt like I had to express my disbelief in it.
Press Rouch@llewelly @futurebird @shafik the source was Vonnegut himself, originally in the New Yorker. It was reprinted in one of his collections - unfortunately my archive is in storage so I can't check which.
https://genius.com/Kurt-vonnegut-joe-heller-annotated
https://genius.com/Kurt-vonnegut-joe-heller-annotated
@press_rouch @futurebird @shafik
huh. Well that's interesting. Maybe I have to believe it ... except the part about john bogel being the source of the story, which if you're right, he at most maybe retold it.
huh. Well that's interesting. Maybe I have to believe it ... except the part about john bogel being the source of the story, which if you're right, he at most maybe retold it.
Schroedinger@futurebird @shafik I think I would rather have written something as amazing as Catch 22. And I think that might then have been "enough" for me.
But it is hard to say, as I am definitely comfortable financially, so it might change if I was less so.
jimkennedy@SteveClough @futurebird @shafik came here to say the same thing, but also to add that someone once snidely remarked to Heller that he hadn't written anything as good as Catch 22 since, to which Heller replied 'neither has anyone else.'
@jimkennedy @futurebird @shafik I think that is why it is a real challenge - to write something as good as one of the greatest works of literature written in the 20th century, that would be enough for most people. Or rather most people who care about art an creative work, and not just how much cash they have in the bank.
Morgan ⚧️@futurebird @shafik I chose the second option because fuck am I tired of not having enough and my "enough" is probably way lower than what he was talking about anyway
I'd be happy with $35k a year or something, enough to pay for rent and food and still have some left over for mutual aid
I'd be happy with $35k a year or something, enough to pay for rent and food and still have some left over for mutual aid
This misses the point, maybe purposefully so. As other chapters in the book discuss, luck and not skill really matters a lot. No one gets to choose these types of success.
No matter what the success industry tries to sell you.
If you do manage some form of “success” are you able to have perspective and find happiness.
This also branches off in many ways, are you able to keep perspective and not blow yourself up
Etc this is about how humble we are.
Sarah E Bourne@futurebird @shafik I like Heller's answer: enough.
Field Replaceable Unit@futurebird @shafik Modest means, but with universal healthcare.
Andrew@futurebird @shafik just yesterday I was looking up cultural differences in "enoughness" because as a transplant in Spain I'm often struck by how big an impact it has on everyday life here vs the US. I feel like "enough" is seen as anti-capitalist and anti-American these days...
Crystal_Fish_Caves@futurebird I would like to be able to live my life over with what I know now, that everything everyone tells me is wrong, that every decision I ever made was wrong, that everyone I ever trusted was wrong, and that if I do not make my way on my own my life will be a wasteland. I was always told my life was going to be so wonderful, that I was so smart and so lucky, that everything was going to be great so I waited for the great shit to happen to me. I need a redo big time. 😜
Lyall@futurebird @shafik voted wealth, on the understanding that I'd use it to improve the world and wouldn't be (that kind of) wealthy for long.
Probably against the spirit of the poll, but it's hard to argue against money as raw power to change the world.
@futurebird @shafik : 🤔 if the poll had asked 'would you rather be the banker', I would not choose it.
Nazo@futurebird @shafik Having "enough" is my dream. There is a lot I could at least do something about in my life if I had "enough." I don't want to be ultra-wealthy. But I sure would like to do the basics I can't do.
Gabi@futurebird Third option, I'd rather have written _2666_. Heller was a good writer and _Catch-22_ is important literature, but I personally didn't enjoy it. I made it through 8 chapters and decided it wasn't worth reading to 42.
⁂iwein⁂@futurebird I'd rather live in a world where everyone has enough. Having enough as an exceptional state is very uncomfortable and is not preferable to option 1 imo
AngelaI chose option 3. In reading the poll options, I felt like I was being asked to choose between having accomplished one thing that had a large impact (whether or not it resulted in a large amount of wealth), and an obscene amount of wealth.
I think the example of the author saying he could have "enough" should not be tied to one specific accomplishment. I think the story is saying that some people have the ability to feel satisfied, and some people are forever hungry.
I don't know what the rest of that book says, but I hope it covers the dangers to society as a whole when people who never feel "full" are seen as role models to emulate rather than folks who are suffering from an illness.
Curious MagpieTo write a book as well crafted and influential as Catch 22 is my choice because it's something I would like to achieve in the outer world.
It's much easier to develop the internal mindset that "enough is as good as a feast" (KS Robinson, Red Mars).
There have been times when I haven't had the basics of enough and it's given me an appreciation for when I do have enough and the ability to stop myself from craving a constant feast (no this isn't about food) when I certainly don't need it.
Javier Lázaro Sanz@futurebird @shafik I probably should have voted the third option as there are more important things in life (loving, being loved, being happy, being good) but being a writer is my unfullfilled dream so I had to vote the first one
🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦@futurebird @shafik I voted the third. I'd rather just have a life of quiet contentment away from the public eye and public interference.
crow@shafik now this is a very good point and yet I feel as though Heller AND Vonnegut both missed something subtle about this business: "money", of the sort that there's never enough of, isn't the same as a pile of gold coins or even of paper banknotes.
There's never *enough* of the sort of nebulous, gaseous- or ionized-phase #money (as I've come to think of it, money has physical phases exactly akin to matter) to keep anyone happy.
~Chara
Pxl Phile
Bob Downie@shafik This reminds of an extremely rich man whose company I once contracted for. He once bitterly complained to me that he could only afford a "pauper's jet". His was a small Lear Jet that had limited space and range (in his opinion), whereas his friends had Boeing 737's and similar.
This was when I learned that the super-rich compare up rather than compare down to the ordinary person, happy to afford just a modest car.
The absurdity of a "pauper's jet" is now indelibly stuck in my mind.