not_IOthey don't mind
DamageAre they very tall?
The tits?
It’s an inherited property, so yeah them too
“They did a great job on the last project. They are a valuable member of the team”
Every single person who complains that “they” is weird has, without the slightest wisp of a shadow of a doubt, said something along the lines of “yeah their coat is just over there” or “I think they were saying that…”. They can already do it, and it’s not hard, they just really wanna hate.
I’m fine with ‘they’, but I think you’re misrepresenting the very real problem that is inserting a 3rd-person pronoun as a personal pronoun due to the existing patterns ingrained and interpreted through speech.
It doesn’t hurt me to try and make the conscious change, I do actively try for the people in my life, but it DOES flow weird in my brain and takes more mental effort to keep straight. At least, it still does, it might get easier with more time, I don’t know.
We’ve been doing it for hundreds of years. If you want to fix English. If you really want to fix something then come up with a plural for “you”, that would be far more helpful.
You may not notice those times you say “they” like in the examples I already gave, but you do say it, and the only thing tripping you up is that you’re thinking about it. It’s like breathing, it’s weird when you’re paying attention but it’s not wrong and you’ve always done it.
“You” is the plural of “thou”. It even has plural grammar (“you are”, not “you is”)
You’re saying that as if you speak to an individual and say “you is”. Do you do that?
That’s almost the opposite of what I said.
So, singular “you” also has this “plural grammar” you mention and we don’t say “thou” anymore. So what’s your point, then?
That was my point.
You said find a plural for “you”.
I said that “you” is already a plural.
That’s it, there’s nothing deeper.
Ok, then demand we bring “thou” back with the same fervor. Maybe I’m missing that crusade in your life but if you’re gunna go around acting like “they” is difficult I would expect equal frustration with “you”, no?
I don’t recall ever suggesting that “they” is difficult. I have in the past used analogy to “you” to help people get comfortable using “they”.
You said it takes mental effort and I’m on a bit of a crusade. Fine, fair enough, but you did bring up unnecessary friction and shit like that is often used as an excuse to not try as hard or excuse people that don’t want to try at all(though yes, you do try).
You have me confused with @[email protected]
I thought you was the more respectful form of thou in singular, and “ye” was the plural form of that. In Ireland you still hear ye used for plural you sometimes.
By more respectful i mean similar to usted in Spanish or vous in French
Lvxferre [he/him]I thought you was the more respectful form of thou in singular, and “ye” was the plural form of that. In Ireland you still hear ye used for plural you sometimes.
Originally the difference between ġē→ye→ye and ēow→yow→you wasn’t one of number, but of case: you’d use “ye” for the subject, “you” for the subject, regardless of being a plural or a respectful singular. Much like “I” vs. “me”. Eventually however “you” displaced “ye” even for the subject role, in most varieties; what you see in Hiberno English is also an innovation, but a different one.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. You’re correct. Plural they is at least as old as Shakespeare. The notion that it’s only singular is modern.
People really don’t want to treat trans people properly and they’ll even pretend shit they already do easily is somehow weird and too difficult. I’m just a cis dude over her, with a host of non-binary friends, and for the most part I just say “they” and haven’t died yet. And I fuck it up sometimes and don’t get hung from the rafters like these goons think will happen, probably because the only scenario they know is when they get it wrong on purpose or are otherwise agitating someone.
Your anger is on a completely irrational level. I don’t understand trans mentality, because I don’t feel like a man or woman — I just feel like me — though I want what’s best for them (the same as anyone) but referring to someone in the 3rd person makes me feel like I’m referring to someone with schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. There’s even an old Seinfeld episode about a guy that refers to himself in the 3rd person and comedy ensues, because nobody does that.
Just because culture and language doesn’t fulfill your requirements or align with your expectations, doesn’t mean that the people of that culture or language are malicious and hateful towards you. The world is not required to bend to your feefees. Hell, the only reason I don’t care about pronouns is because I struggle to remember names… People tend to get offended when you forget their names as it is, now I have to add another dimension I’ll undoubtably fuck up… I can accept trans people being the way they are without giving a fuck, but apparently I can’t expect the same acceptance for my brain being the way it is, and if I don’t dot my I’s and cross my T’s as you see fit I risk being called a bigot, so fuck me I guess…
Buddy that’s a whole lot of words to say you’re fucking tool. I’m not even trans, just a cis dude with non-binary friends and a basic understanding of how the English language has functioned for hundreds of years. If your brain cannot handle saying “they” then said brain is fucking pathetic. Figure it out, and if you really can’t at least don’t go trying to make it everyone else’s problem you absolute twat.
Like, it’s not even that you’re having a hard time with a very easy concept, no one is perfect and the added stress of getting it right will occasionally lead to mistakes. My friends don’t hate me when I mess up because they know I’m trying, and people hate you because you’re putting more energy into saying you won’t even try, and calling them schizophrenic for some reason, than just putting in the bare minimum effort.
No one is saying to use it only as a singular, and the singular form of they has written record predating Shakespeare
It’s like you didn’t read their comment at all before replying. Singular they feels natural as a 3rd person pronoun for a party whose gender is unknown. When using it to describe a known person, it feels like you’re talking about an unknown person even though you do know them. It does feel weird to say and makes me pause any time I have to say it
Literally you already do it without a problem. You have, and I would bet large sums of money on it, said in regards to someone well know to you “they forgot it at home” or something to that effect. You already do this without thinking, the only extra layer is that you’re trying not to get it wrong, not that it’s difficult to get it right.
Just practice some more. You still won’t be perfect but these people literally do not care at all so long as you’re trying and aren’t attempting to take their rights away. They have bigger fish to fry.
If the person is well known to me, I would say he/she (if that’s their pronouns), not the 3rd person “they”
Oh, to be there when you say “they” haha
Or to watch you struggle to force yourself to say he/she so I “lose”.
It’s ok, we’ve only been doing it for hundreds of years; it’s just a passing fad, right?
I feel like you’re obtusely ignoring the difference in context between how the non-binary “they” is used (which is a new phenomenon) and how the 3rd person of indefinite gender “they” is used
Oh, go on then, explain it. I’d love to hear the nuanced differences between these two uses of 3rd person singular “they” for when he or she are not possible to use.
I feel like you haven’t read anybody else’s comments other your own, because I and others have already explained it
You so very very much did not. The only difference is that you simply don’t want to make a non-binary person comfortable.
There is absolutely no rule in the English language that states that if you know someone’s biological sex(of which there are more than two but let’s keep it simple) you must use the corresponding he/him/his or she/her/hers pronouns for them. You can 100% use “they” in reference to your own damn mother if you wanted to, it’s all above board.
So, please, explain the difference between the two things you mentioned before. I’m simply dying to hear what you have to say.
Youre actually wrong - I never said I dont use they/them pronouns for people who prefer it; I only said that it doesnt come off the tongue very naturally. It forces a pause in thought because it feels grammatically incorrect.
But to answer your request, here’s a comment I wrote earlier that you quite obviously didn’t bother to read before replying to it:
Singular they feels natural as a 3rd person pronoun for a party whose gender is unknown. When using it to describe a known person, it feels like you’re talking about an unknown person even though you do know them.
So, yes, I did say this before. You just chose not to read it
But explain how this is different in an actual grammatical sense.
Yes, it is incredibly minorly different in how it feels and guess what, it gets easier if you stop moaning about it and just lean into it. I simply refer to most people as “they” now and it both hasn’t caused any communication breakdowns and it’s made it super easy to not slip-up. Barely any mistakes these days, and it really didn’t take that long.
You’re making such a big deal out of it and for what?
I feel that you’re the one making a big deal about it. I’ve already agreed to behave according to your rules - but obedience isn’t enough for you. You require full on ideological purity as well. If someone tells you “yes i will use your preferred pronouns but bear with me since it doesnt feel grammatically correct, but im playing along because it causes less strife” why isn’t that enough for you?
Jesus Christ, why do you want to be the victim so bad? Are you getting off on this or something?
I’m literally saying that no one is mad at you for not being perfect, I specifically said that I’m not perfect either, and that the only reason anyone would ever be mad is that you seem to think it’s important to point that this simple thing is hard and this very grammatically correct thing “feels” wrong.
Geez calm down its just the internet. I can handle pronouns just fine. You can’t seem to handle people having different opinions than you
Pretty sure you was plural and thee was singular. Or something like that.
They has always been a 3rd person personal pronoun just like he/she/it have as far as I know. The thing that people find upsetting is that people want to go back to using it as a singular after some grammarians decided everyone should use he or her for a while.
They is running late?
Leonixster"Ah yes, let us disregard basic grammar rules in order to make a stupid argument to ‘prove’ my point, that’s clearly what’ll convince people that my way is the right one"
- your stupid ass
I’m not the one disregarding the grammar rules. You are.
Wow, I did not expect people to assume I was a biggot for pointing out the issues this causes for clarity in language. Like it is legitimately confusing.
Except I am not, they has been used singularly for centuries now.
Let me put it in a way that will make sense for you. Singular “they” is, more often than not, used when people do not know the gender or amount of a group. Whenever you speak of a corporation or company, it is extremely common to use “they” instead of “it”. E.g. “they are the ones in charge of making that decision”. In the example, you are speaking of a company or similar group, a singular entity by itself. However, since the speaker does not know who or how many people make this decision, the speaker uses a singular “they”.
This is but one example of how they has been used as a singular pronoun for ages, but let us digress a little bit. Why the fuck is the royal “we” allowed, but not the singular “they”? They both follow the same structure but inverse of each other, where the royal we is a way to say “I’m speaking of myself as a part of a bigger entity/community”. You can make an argument that both of these carry plural connotations, but my point is that grammar rules and language as a whole is way more nuanced than black or white.
So, please, save your spit and time with a counter argument that only pushes forward discriminating thinking and stop being a pussy about language change.
Btw, I’m not a native English speaker, which goes to show that I was actively taught about singular they, instead of picking it up intuitively like most native speakers do.
I’m not the one disregarding the grammar rules. You are.
You are.
You, in this case, is singular. Why are you using are?!
It turns out, “the issues this causes for clarity in language” don’t actually matter, and it doesn’t cause any issues. It’s perfectly clear “you” and “they” here are singular, despite the plural grammar. It is not confusing, as you clearly proved in your own comment by using “you are.”
Why does no one in this topic under the difference between second and third person? The rules are not the same between these, stop acting like this is a gotcha, you’re just proving your own ignorance on the topic.
But that’s not the reason for “you are!” It’s because you used to be plural! We stopped using it for plural and it’s exclusively singular now, yet it maintains the plural grammar.
It used to be “thou art” for second person singular and “you are” for second person plural. Now it’s “you are” for second person singular and usually “you all/y’all are” or “you guys are,” but sometimes “you are,” for second person plural. “They are” is in good company.
Grammar and language are made up. Stop arguing about the rules and just use it in the way that’s useful for communication with your contemporaries, or if you are going to argue about “maintaining the purity of the rules” then start using “thou art” for second person plural, so your peers can understand you.
“They are running late”. We’ve been using the singular “they” for hundreds of years, it isn’t that difficult. German uses third person plural for polite second person singular, it’s not that weird to have third person plural be third person singular, too, especially when English makes no distinction between between “you” and “you”.
Anyway, it’s simple shit.
We also use “they” singular if we don’t know the gender of a person, like when we haven’t met them yet.
In that sense it was a very logical choice for non-binary on my opinion.
You are almost there, well done for trying
Nope, that’s actually correct. You may need to re-attend grade school
I love watching someone flounder around with 100% arrogance.
You are singularly really dumb.
Second person vs third person, dummy. If you’re going to insult someone’s intelligence, at least be right about it.
Huh? I’m a dummy–teach me this arcane English rule that i wasn’t aware of until now.
For what it’s worth though: Have you always held such righteous standards for dialogue? Hard to follow what people are saying when they (oops!) speak with the wrong perspective? You must struggle in the modern world, the way people eviscerate our language publicly pretty much 24/7. I’d feel bad for you if you seemed like a decent person.
What arcane English rule?
Your rebuttal to my issue with the third person handling of a singular they, was you using the second person…as if that was related. Do you still not understand the difference? It’s not that I didn’t understand you, you were just wrong to use it as a counter example to what I said. Damn, you doubled down by showing how poor comprehension skills are.
Sure pal
Imagine the people who jumped down my throat because they kneejerk assumed I was dead naming, use that very things they attacked me over as their go to insult.
And in a manner I cannot even see.
Pick a lane.
No, you dummy. The reason we use “are” with “you” is because it was originally plural. However, language is mutable and ever-changing. You is almost exclusively used as singular now, yet it keeps the plural “are”. The point being, your statement that “they is” is wrong doesn’t prove anything. We use the “wrong” grammar for words all the time and we don’t care, until you can do it to hurt someone.
Hey dummy. I never said “they is” is wrong.
I’m the one arguing for that use. EVERYONE ELSE here decided to shit on me for it. So many people here wanting to argue about grammar that can’t even fucking comprehend what they read.
Where did I hurt anyone? You’re assigning shit to a vague statement on grammar that I never said it implied. Hair triggers the lot of you.
It’s because “they is” is not correct usage, even if it’s used as singular, just as “you is” isn’t. Saying “they is” makes it sound like you’re pointing out that it doesn’t work so therefor it must be plural. It’s “they are” even if used as singular.
As opposed to arguing about fake rules that don’t even exist in modern English, maybe just apply the slightest bit of logic. Language doesn’t work the way you are insisting it does, it’s not math.