Marcin WicharyJun 20

Once in a while I imagine how much more pleasant HTML would be to type if only different brackets were originally chosen.

[div]
[p]
[a href=‘’][/a]
[/p]
[/div]

No single Shift press was necessary here.

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

Now curious exactly why SGML chose angle brackets! Would love to see a written statement. This is the closest I got to an answer, but it’s not really an answer.

https://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s3.connolly.html

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

This is from the standard, which I found online here: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/FIPS/fipspub152.pdf

(That footnote is prescient.)

There are references to an 1980 draft, but wonder if that would be explained there. There probably also also working group notes…

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

Poring over SGML Handbook from Goldfarb himself (Goldfarb is the “G” in GML).

SGML had some wild features!

https://archive.org/details/sgmlhandbook0000gold/

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

Very interesting! https://jtc1info.org/sd-2-history/jtc1-subcommittees/sc-34/

Not sure those are available online…

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20
I sent some emails, but I am not sure if this is going to go anywhere. It’s wild that there isn’t an authoritative answer online, given how much of modern “online” uses HTML and angle brackets.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

More from the same person writing about “chicken scratches.” Includes a tantalizing cover page of a working document.

https://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol23/html/Mason01/BalisageVol23-Mason01.html

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 20

Still digging.

“To encourage acceptance, the authors of the SGML specification followed other design objectives: the ability to enter text and markup on "the millions of existing text entry devices"; no character set dependency; no national language bias; and markup usable by both humans and programs.”

https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000465.shtml

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 21

Thanks to my emails but also people who were participating today, I got an email from one of the key players that sent me some great leads and info to investigate! (Including a PDF of the report I was salivating over earlier.)

It turns out the angle brackets are at most from 1979, if not earlier. More to research!

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 21

This is the earliest appearance of < > I know of today, from 1979.

This thread might slow down, as next step will be some interlibrary requests!

Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 21
This might be more interesting. <P1> and <P2>! <#> for styling! Excited to dig and learn more.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 21
They are *killing me*. In the old article about the history of it that I just discovered, they are using… square brackets.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 23
They really are killing me.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 24
Fired some interlibrary requests. Wish me luck!
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 25
Is this going to go anywhere? Unclear. But I like this part.
Show threadGlenn Fleishman
@mwichary Shift-Period/Comma Happens
Jun 25 at 6:41pmWeb
×
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 21
They are *killing me*. In the old article about the history of it that I just discovered, they are using… square brackets.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 23
They really are killing me.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 24
Fired some interlibrary requests. Wish me luck!
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 25
Is this going to go anywhere? Unclear. But I like this part.
Show threadMarcin WicharyJul 5

I like scanning and putting up interlibrary stuff on Internet Archive.

This is the first one I got. Not sure yet if it’s going to help with the HTML bracket investigation, but maybe it’ll help someone else! https://archive.org/details/gca-standard-101-1983

GCA Standard 101-1983 : Graphic Communications Association : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

…

Internet Archive
Show threadSnoopJJul 5

@mwichary this is a fun rabbit hole you've fallen into here!

As someone who has an inherited reverence for SGML but not much actual knowledge of it, it's pretty cool to see.

Show threadendquoteJun 25
@mwichary Impressed by your level of focus.
Show threadGlenn FleishmanJun 25
@mwichary Shift-Period/Comma Happens
Show threadGrant HutchinsonJun 25

@mwichary Somewhat related and/or unrelated … did you know that there’s an XML/HTML tokenizer for the #AppleNewton?

https://40hz.org/Pages/newton/packages/ntox/

Ntox

Show threadpetes_bread_eqn_xlsJun 24
@mwichary Good luck! An ILL getting fulfilled is better than Christmas morning!
Show threadJonas DowneyJun 24
@mwichary if the next example uses (h1)parentheses(/h1), then we can be certain you’re being trolled
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 24
@jonasdowney I’m worried that it will all amount to a big fat nothing… but we’ll see.
Show threadBITNACHTJun 24
@jonasdowney @mwichary There will be one! Read the text. It said it uses IBMs OCR-A on the Selectric. If you print the same text and forget to use that Type Element, you will see ( ) where { } used to be.
Show threadBITNACHTJun 24
@jonasdowney @mwichary And maybe this is (part of) the reason for < and >. Because those two take the place of ± and ° in OCR-B and this allows you to use normal parenthesis at the same time.
Show threadKim SlawsonJun 23
@mwichary plot twist: this is actually the markup language Mandela effect
Show thread🇺🇦 haxadecimalJun 23
@mwichary
Ah! My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
Show threadcosJun 21
@mwichary Now I’m wondering where WordPerfect was inspired to use square brackets…
Show threadMarcin WicharyJun 24
@cos Oh, that’s a very good question!!!
Show threadDavid HopewardJun 21
@mwichary
Oh man, the Irony came for you!
Show threadalex.tmJun 23
@mwichary I think the readability suffers a bit using square brackets instead of angled. It wouldn’t be much of a problem in a code editor with a colour theme though I guess.