FenrirIIIThe "standard" car charger is usually overkill—but your electrician might not know that [32:26]
JackDarkHighly recommend Technology Connections for anyone interested in easy to understand, relatable breakdown videos of technology.
UlrichMostly old-ish technology, which is far more interesting because they had to be more innovative.
Dat toaster
could this be an article instead of a video? I’m not spending 32 minutes watching this, tbh
entropicdriftThis has to be my favorite thing about Jeff Geerling vs other YouTube channels, he’ll make an accompanying blog post to go with each of his main channel videos that is effectively an annotated text version of the video with appropriately embedded images and links.
Lots of them do that if you look.
You should give it a shot. The dudes videos are super captivating.
For me, they’re captivating for about 5 minutes. Then the dry humor and constant cries of outrage become irritating. He could probably make 15-20 minute, info-dense videos without all the extra “personality”.
It’s called edutainment
Similarly Doug DeMuro could make 5 minute car reviews but he’s really good at the long-form ones and has become a millionaire because of it. His quirks and features are not for everyone, but a majority of people like it, quirks and all.
I think Technology Connections is just like that, and I respect that you’re one of the people who may not like the personality part, but the information is pretty solid.
Yes. In a nutshell it’s “if you don’t know about electric cars, here’s some information you probably don’t know as well”
This is how I feel about any video longer than a short gif
Good video. Accurate information.
Two notes:
For North American homes: I agree with the overlooked value of a downrated circuit for EV charging, but I don’t think he talked about a possibly better option for downrating: Using an existing 120v circuit (at whatever current rating) already wired in the garage . Remove the outlet, install EVSE (charger), and swap the breaker for a 240v one (at a current rating matching the original. So if you have a 120v 15A circuit (white romex) you can use the exact same wire for a 240v at 15A. If you have a 20A (yellow romex) you would end up with a 240v 20A. You get more than double the speed of charging with zero new wires added, only changing the breaker and removing the old outlets. Note: If you have multiple outlets in your garage all fed from this same circuit, this would mean all of your outlets in the garage are now 240v and not usable for regular 120v items.
He didn’t like Smart chargers. Thats a valid opinion, but smart chargers can do some nice things that I like. Some will also talk to each other if you have two chargers, such as if you have two EVs. They can be configured to share the same wire to the breaker box, so you can plug both cars in at night, one car will charge, then when that is complete, the other will charge automatically without having to unplug one car and then plug in the other. It will charge the least charged car first ensuring the best balance of charge to both cars assuming both cars can’t be charged to full in one night. If you have solar panels, some smart chargers can talk to the solar system and be instructed to only charge when there is excess power that would otherwise go to waste. It can do this automatically so if clouds go overhead and not enough juice is available from the sun, the charging stops. As soon as the clouds clear and there is an excess again, charging resumes automatically. For outdoor charging, you can also configure most Smart chargers to only charge you authorized cars. So you don’t need to worry about someone rolling into your driveway when you’re not home (or a bad neighbor) and running up your electricity bill.
A 240V 20amp circuit I think would meet the needs of 99% of commuters in the US. If your average miles/kWh is around 3.3 and you’re charging at 80% of the 20amp breaker limit (as you should be), even factoring in 10% losses in power transmission, you’re still charging somewhere around 11 miles per hour. Easy 100+ miles overnight with zero infrastructure change outside of a couple wire nuts and a cheap charger. Hell, depending on local codes, you might get away with slapping in a nema 6-20 receptacle to make it even easier…
Hell, depending on local codes, you might get away with slapping in a nema 6-20 receptacle to make it even easier…
If you do a receptacle, you’ve got to then do a GFCI. Check out the price difference between a GFCI breaker and one that isn’t. If you hardware the EVSE, you don’t need GFCI because GFCI is built into nearly all EVSE. If we’re doing this exercise to keep low costs, adding GFCI outside of the EVSE jacks up the price.
Fair enough! Anyone with existing 240v receptacles of any kind is a lucky duck, regardless.
Are they somehow more expensive in the US? 40A 230V rated ones cost something like 30-50 € around here which doesn’t feel that expensive to me. I’ll admit it’s considerably more expensive (~4x the price) than a standard breaker, but it’s still more like a rounding error in overall costs.
Although EVSE’s projection doesn’t require you to periodically trip the GFCI so it doesn’t get stuck, which is a major plus.
Are they somehow more expensive in the US? 40A 230V rated ones cost something like 30-50 € around here which doesn’t feel that expensive to me.
In my suggested hardwired 240V 20A EV charger the total parts cost is just the regular breaker on the left at about $18.
The suggested solution you had of putting an outlet in would have parts cost of $119 + the cost of the GFCI breaker, the outlet and the receptacle cover. So that solution is 660% more expensive.
Ok, so the US-style GFCI-breakers are indeed a lot more expensive than similarly rated DIN-rail alternatives. TIL
If it makes you feel better, I was shocked (pun intended) to learn this too, and I live here.
Running more than one outlet on a 220 circute is generally against us codes. It will work but don't do it.
I have a phev with only 30 miles of range - ofen I get home with a nearly dead battery and need to leave again soon - I want faster charging. I'm sure someone with 200 miles of range can be fine on 110 volt slow charging as there likely enough time over a week that it works.
I think #1 is suggesting to move the neutral over to another hot phase and change the outlet to a 240v nema 6 (I think) with two hots and a ground. The 240v at the same amps gives you higher watts so faster charging without an expensive new conductor.
The problem with #1 is that most garages only have one circuit for the outlets AND the garage door opener. Moving to 240v would fry the opener.
Changing a 120v line over to 240 is likely also against code even if the physical cable can handle it. 120V cable is typically white/black/green, and the electrical code prohibits using the white one as a hot leg. That’s why 240V cable of the same AWG is red/black/green. The red & black legs both carry 120V.
Code allows painting the white conductor black which is what i do. Or at least it did 10 years ago when I last checked.
This.
That said, it’s rare that only one or two outlets in a garage are tied to a breaker. Usually they’re all on one circuit in older homes, in my experience.
If you can find a circuit like this, though, it’s perfectly valid. Many chargers made for 110V also have a 230V/15 or 20 amp mode. My Mother-in-law’s portable charger has a 230V NEMA 2-20 adapter that comes in the bag with it.
#1 is a terrible idea if you ever need to hire an electrician in the future, plan on selling your house, etc. The National Electric Code prohibits using white, green, or grey wire for a hot/load connection. The 120V cable will contain a black wire for the hot connection, white for neutral, and green for ground. To properly convert it to 240V you would need a cable that consists of black & red wires for the two 120V legs.
If your home ever suffered an electrical fire then this sort of jury rigging is precisely the sort of thing any competent insurance inspector would spot, and insurance carriers would deny coverage for since it clearly isn’t code compliant, which means a licensed electrician didn’t install it and it wasn’t properly inspected.
#1 is a terrible idea if you ever need to hire an electrician in the future, plan on selling your house, etc. The National Electric Code prohibits using white, green, or grey wire for a hot/load connection. The 120V cable will contain a black wire for the hot connection, white for neutral, and green for ground. To properly convert it to 240V you would need a cable that consists of black & red wires for the two 120V legs.
If your home ever suffered an electrical fire then this sort of jury rigging is precisely the sort of thing any competent insurance inspector would spot, and insurance carriers would deny coverage for since it clearly isn’t code compliant, which means a licensed electrician didn’t install it and it wasn’t properly inspected.
#1 is a terrible idea if you ever need to hire an electrician in the future, plan on selling your house, etc. The National Electric Code prohibits using white, green, or grey wire for a hot/load connection. The 120V cable will contain a black wire for the hot connection, white for neutral, and green for ground. To properly convert it to 240V you would need a cable that consists of black & red wires for the two 120V legs.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m no certified Sparky, but wire relabeling is used in a number of situations fully in accordance with NEC. My understanding is that some of this is in NEC 200.7. It requires relabeling both ends, but I don’t think there’s any code violation with it. If what you’re saying was true, wouldn’t that mean any -2 NM (Romex) would be code incompatible with 240v loads? I don’t think that’s true.
The “120 volt cable”, assuming you mean NM-B aka Romex, is rated for up to 600 volts if you look at it closely. It is absolutely acceptable to use that wiring for a 240V circuit, as long as you wrap colored (not green) electrical tape around the white neutral wire to indicate it’s another hot.
Yes, there are 3-conductor (plus ground) wires one can also use for switches and 240V circuits with neutral. That neutral can be used to have 120V and 240V together (your oven may use 240V coils, but the light bulb probably runs on 120). Doesn’t mean you need to have it, if your 240V circuit doesn’t need a neutral. My air compressor is just a motor that can run at 240, no neutral needed, and its outlet is wired up with the same kind of Romex used for a 120 right next to it (with black tape to indicate a second hot)
For me the smart charger was a key feature, and I never understood why that is never talked about. I have 200a service which was plenty for one fully powered charging service, but with the likelihood of electrification in upcoming years I was hesitant to have two. It was pretty clear I needed to prioritize smart charging so I’d have that possibility.
So far my family only has the one EV, so we only need the one charger. But I like that if we needed a second charger it could be on the same circuit and they could dynamically share the power to maximize charging
Wtf even is this comment
For context I’m an electrician
You absolutely can’t just “swap a 15A 120v breaker to a 240v one”. 240v single phase referenced to ground does not exist in a residential context, that is only common in europe. A residential service is 240v split-phase meaning each half of 240 is referenced to neutral, 180 degrees out of phase with each other. The reference to the grounded conductor (neutral) from the transformer is 120v to gnd, or 240v phase to phase. 240v is always referenced phase to phase, never to ground.
This comment is dangerous and stupid. Just try to use some random ass outlet in your garage that is likely tied to other outlets bc other than the GFCI next to your panel there are very few circuits in the US that have a single 120v outlet. Running 240v to more than one outlet is v much pushing the limits on code, but I can’t say that for certain. I’m an industrial electrician, not resi.
Either way tho, trying to draw more voltage than what’s available will only destroy what’s in there.
Lastly “If you have a 20A (yellow romex) you would end up with a 240v 20A. You get more than double the speed of charging with zero new wires added, only changing the breaker and removing the old outlets”
This is pure fucking bullshit my dude. 20 amps is the current rating of the circuit before it will trip. What car charger is out there that can run 120v at a slightly higher current, which I don’t think even exists because you can’t just make it 240v, that the overpowered “yellow Romex” can provide you
This is dangerous and stupid. Just stop now
blitzenI think “might be overkill” would be a better title and position than “usually overkill.”
There is absolutely a subset of EV drivers that could get by with a level 1 charger (ignoring time of day rates), but most people would fall behind anytime they drive further than the average number of miles. Sure, taking 10 hours to recharge your Chevy Bolt overnight when you’ve driven 40 miles is doable; 64 hours when you’ve returned home from a longer trip isn’t.
I own a PHEV, and installing a level 2 charge has been one of the best quality of life and financial changes.
What kind of range do you have on that? I’ve been debating installing a l2 charger because overnight charging is usually good enough. I tend to get about 15-20 miles range tops on pure electric.
30-35 miles, depending on the season.
The way I explained it to my brother:
- technically just plug in to an existing outlet will work. Even if you didn’t keep up every day, you would get tot the weekend and make it up then
- but your garage already has a dryer outlet. Adapters are cheap and it will charge 4-5 times as fast
- but 50a level 2 charger is the same size as a stove outlet. Maybe a little longer wire run, and the “outlet” is more expensive, but it’s well worth the cost for the freedom, the flexibility, the convenience … and may even add to your house value
BuelldozerAs explained in the video you can’t run 50 amps ona dryer outlet. It’s 42 amps max.
I believe dryer outlets are typically 30a@240v. That’s a nice step up than a standard outlet and simple math shows 4x the power of 15a@120v
If you have one in your garage, then you already have an outlet that can do faster charging than a standard outlet.
RivalarrivalCan you cite a time stamp? I don’t want to watch a 30 minute video.
I’m very curious where “42 amps max” comes from, as NEMA outlets are rated for 15A, 20A, 30A, 50A, or 60A. 42A is a rather oddball number; I’d like some context for it.
Most dryer outlets are rated for 30A, NEMA 10-30, or 14-30.
Not the same person and cba to get a timestamp right now, but it’s the 80% rule - the electrical stuff isn’t designed to deliver the rated amperage continuously for hours on end, so for car charging, you’re apparently supposed to limit it to 80%. Now, 80% of 50 isn’t 42 but 40, so not sure if it’s a case of 80% not being a precise number or a mistake here, but it roughly checks out.
Yep the difference for our setup was going from 12-18 hour full charge times (Level 1) to about 6 hours on Level 2. L1 charger could only put out 12 amps at 120v, and while the L2 charger can do up to 50A of 240v power, our vehicle can only use about a third of that capacity at max draw.
So as the video’s topic covers, we didn’t need a 50A circuit for Level 2 charging on our limited vehicle. But I put in a full 50A circuit anyway so now I can eventually upgrade our other car to electric or PHEV and be ready for whatever those need.
Agreed, and that headline is needlessly inflammatory . Looking at my mileage , I could almost certainly get away with just plugging into a standard outlet. However the level 2 charger means that even if I screw it up, I can be mostly charged in a couple of hours. It’s been really effective at helping me get over what range anxiety I had. It’s really helped keep car usage as a somewhat impulse thing, rather than a process: I’m ready to go anywhere anytime
If you screw up, you can usually get to a charger a few blocks away and snag 50% of your battery in 20 minutes.
I charge entirely off of a standard 120 outlet, and it easily handles my daily and weekly travel needs, along with my partner’s numerous errands and extra trips throughout the week.
jumping redditor [they/them]you are assuming functional infrastructure, not everywhere has that.
Gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that people living in a cabin where the electricity only works a few hours a week aren’t going to by an electric car.
As for access to public chargers… I just spent the weekend in a rural area and had no problem finding a charger within 20 miles of me.
I think “might be overkill” would be a better title and position than “usually overkill.”
It factually is not.
most people would fall behind anytime they drive further than the average number of miles.
Assume you drive it all the way to empty, then park it and plug it back in at 7PM. Leave it for 12 hours until you leave again in the morning at 7AM. A typical small EV will charge at ~5MPH on a 110V, 1.2kW connection (faster on a 20A circuit). So 5MPH x 12 hours means you already have 60 miles of range again for the next day. And I would say that’s a pretty extreme scenario.
Realistically you would never drive it to 0% and you would probably leave it parked longer than 12 hours.
I use L1 almost exclusively, BTW.
Probably if you have a Hummer or something you might want something a bit faster.
It factually is not.
Factually, it’s not either. Both are statements of opinion, although I’d say saying the word “usually” should have some degree of proof behind it.
My statement of “might be” recognizes that there are many instances that L1 makes sense, and I agree with the video that for those for whom it does shouldn’t needlessly install a 240v outlet. Sounds like you’re among those.
I’d say that, sadly, most EV drivers drive more than 40 miles per day on average, and that the moment you drive more than 60 miles per day you’ll have difficulty recharging to full. Most days, you’ll have no trouble recharging overnight. But if you’re like me, you might take a day trip over 100 miles away a handful of times per year. When that happens, I’d arrive home with very little battery left; am I supposed to have the ability to charge for 50 hours?
Factually, it’s not either. Both are statements of opinion
It is not. Hence “factually”. We know for a fact how far people “usually” drive.
But if you’re like me, you might take a day trip over 100 miles away a handful of times per year. When that happens, I’d arrive home with very little battery left; am I supposed to have the ability to charge for 50 hours?
I just explained this in the comment you replied to.
I just explained this in the comment you replied to.
You explained how it’s doable when you drive 60 miles, which I admit will be most people most days (12 hours of charging at 5 miles per hour charged.) Average EV has 293 miles of range currently; even if you arrived home with 20% battery remaining and you only wanted to recharge to 80%, that’s (at 5 miles per hour charged) over 25 hours. Empty to full is over 58 hours!
At least once every few months we take a day trip to the nearest “big” city, which is 105 miles away. Typically a Sunday. Leave on a full battery, arrive home nearly empty. 8 hours of charging, and I maybe have enough for the next day. I will run a deficit until the weekend.
Again, I’m certainly not saying that a L2 charger is a must for all people, or even most people. But I would not agree that L1 is enough for most people.
You explained how it’s doable when you drive 60 miles
Read it again. I said 60 miles the day after driving it to 0%. People don’t “usually” need this.
Average EV has 293 miles of range currently; even if you arrived home with 20% battery remaining and you only wanted to recharge to 80%,
Thats 176 miles of range. People don’t “usually” need that.
At least once every few months we take a day trip to the nearest “big” city, which is 105 miles away.
You said all of this already and I already replied to it.
I’m certainly not saying that a L2 charger is a must for…most people. But I would not agree that L1 is enough for most people.
🤔 Wat. Do you think there’s like a L1.5 or something?
Let’s agree to simply not tell people what they do and do not need.
I’m not telling anyone what they need. I’m telling you what people usually need. Which is the topic of the conversation you started.
Wat. Do you think there’s like a L1.5 or something?
There’s the option of a level 1 charger at home, supplemented with an occasional stop at a fast charger.
The L1 charger is not quite enough to keep up with their usage, but their usage isn’t enough to make an L2 absolutely necessary.
What electric vehicle gets 5 miles/1.2kWh? That’s only 240 Wh/mi.
What electric vehicle gets 5 miles/1.2kWh?
Most of the small ones.
You guys really should do some reading before you downvote things you don’t understand
Congrats on finding a solution that works for you. I have a short commute (16 miles round trip) and was OK to use L1 charging on a “usually” basis. However, I do more things in my life than just going to work and back. After work I might drive another 90 miles round trip to meet some friends at a brewery. Or I might drive only a couple miles to a buddy’s house and not get home until 11pm, so I now only have 7 hours to charge at L1 instead of 12 hours. And on weekends when I’m maybe driving a couple hours to hike in the desert and come back, I now have 16 hours to charge for work on Monday after driving 210 miles round trip.
Switching from L1 to L2 charging at home made driving an EV go from a daily chore to something I almost never thought about.
This is not about me or you, this is “usually”.
That depends on what is meant by usually. You seem to think it means “most daily situations,” but I think it means “most house installations.” Yes, a usual day in a person’s life does not require L2. But the usual person does require L2 if they want to use their car like most people prefer to use their car. Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn’t commuting. That is 1 day in a 7 day week, so usually I don’t need L2. But I would not be able to have an EV if I didn’t have L2 unless I had a second car (which I don’t have). I think most people fall into this category, so the usual person needs L2 even if they don’t usually need L2.
You seem to think it means “most daily situations,” but I think it means “most house installations.”
That’s the opposite of what I think.
Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn’t commuting.
No you don’t. You go and do those things, then plug it in and charge it up over the next 6 days until it’s fully charged again. If that is insufficient then you are not a typical usecase.