People often complain "why is this language-learning app teaching me phrases like 'the radishes are scheming' and not 'may I have the bill'? I have a vacation in this country next week!"

If you have a vacation in that country next week, google a list of tourist phrases and memorize it by rote. These tend to be non-generalizable fixed phrases of complex, even archaic grammar. If you want to learn the language – which will not happen conclusively by next week – memorably whimsical sentences like "the radishes are scheming" teach you far more about modular, generalizable information you can use to build thousands of different sentences.

#language #languagelearning

for everyone requesting further information on the machinations of root vegetables
@0xabad1dea oh great next you're gonna tell me he's stealing the mail
@0xabad1dea I think I get your point. But please, won't you tell us about their plans?
@0xabad1dea also, what if the radishes are really scheming
@0xabad1dea Years back, whatever I was using to attempt to learn Italian taught me the translation for "I am a beautiful butterfly" (which I think was "Sono una bellissima farfalla"). I haven't remembered much besides like truly core words but damn has that one stuck with me
@0xabad1dea Während die Rettiche sich verschwören, scheinen die Radieschen unter dem Radar zu fliegen. Wir müssen die Gemüserevolution aufhalten!
@0xabad1dea But also, what if you discovered that the radishes were scheming but you couldn't tell anyone because you hadn't learnt how to say that? 🙀

@0xabad1dea Yep. The most commonly used words and phrases in a language or culture get the most shortened and, once they're reduced about as far as its sound structure allows, frozen in time. "God be with ye" gradually shrank to "goodbye," and "children" retains the Germanic plural in English a millennium later.

The rest of the language drifts on semantically, phonetically, and orthographically, but the parts used most often persist beyond any fit in the context of the rest. Part of the joy of learning a different language is realizing just how much of this one has absorbed unaware in the language of one's upbringing.

@0xabad1dea These sentences are useful, while very frustrating when my understanding of a language depends on the world it describes. I hear a sentence as something reasonable, but incorrect when the radishes are scheming and people befriend oranges.

Maybe they train skills I wouldn't use with English.

Tourist phrases having much harder grammar seems to be universal among the languages I know simple grammar of.

@0xabad1dea And weird sentence tend to be memorable. I remember giggling over variants of "there are onions in the sauna" with @kristacat much better than Finnish classes, and hopefully that helps the language lessons to stick.
@airtower @0xabad1dea Always about the vegetables in weird places 🤭
@0xabad1dea Duolingo is a trashfire for other reasons (especially in languages with smaller numbers of learners like Dutch), but your explanation is basically what I've used to defend the "je bent een eend" phrases.
@0xabad1dea if anyone reading this is looking for pointers on the “memorize important phrases” piece, I have had very good luck with the Pimsleur courses for basic getting around phrases in Japanese, German, Polish, and Greek, and following the same model I badgered some friends into teaching me just enough French to get by
@0xabad1dea based on the language apps I thought I would have far more use for words like "nijlpaarden" and "eenhoorn".
@0xabad1dea @th Neushoorn! Such a good word.

@th @0xabad1dea Wait, I gotta look something up real quick.

... okay yeah that's funny.

@0xabad1dea @janamarie I did a year of Duolingo before it taught be a number other than 1 100 or 1000.

They’ve restructed their material a lot, but numbers where lesson 2 of the German intro course I did later.
@0xabad1dea 100% agreed. Learning seemingly random phrases pay off once you notice that you just ordered a portion of 拌面without thinking about it, without having learned the actual phrase. Building language on the spot is where the fun is
@0xabad1dea
sure, when it's not just being outright cruel
@0xabad1dea Yeah, I loved making up absurd examples while learning languages, things like "There are some missing ingrediences to my pencil eraser soup, we will need to correct this or the ceremony will be an awful failure" It's how I make things stick better in my mind, but yeah, for something more immediate it probably won't work, and taking a phrasebook along, and looking at memorising the most important ones are going to give you a way better time :)
@0xabad1dea @derFisch :,3 Yeah I‘m like the opposite and hate it if learning material starts with phrases, like I will wonder, why does the phrase have this shape, what grammar and words did they use?
@0xabad1dea すみません、日本語はあまりよく分かりません。バカアメリカ人です。

@0xabad1dea Yeah, my wife was surprised by all the weird phrases in Duolingo and asked "why would you ever need to say that!"

But it makes it a lot more fun and it can also teach you words that maybe you don't need on your vacation but are useful when reading fiction or something.

@0xabad1dea I'm definitely not going to forget "niwa niwa niwa niwatori ga iru" (庭には二羽鶏がいる, "there are two chickens in the garden")

Although it might be a bad example since it's intentionally written slightly weirdly to have all those niwas in a row. But I guess that exposes you to more grammar!