After some extended discussion with the rest of the Treehouse moderation team, as well as extended discussion with Gina, the new owner of fosstodon, we are planning to take incremental steps that will result in full defederation of fosstodon from Treehouse.

Fosstodon has been a consistent moderation headache for our team for years, initially because of the same problems we have seen from many of the tech instances: drive-by snippy and unhelpful comments like "oh YOU wouldn't be having that problem if you just used GNU/Linux instead!"

In the past year or so, however, things have changed in the nature of the moderation issues we have seen from Fosstodon. While the "reply guy" behaviour is still present, the overall temperature has shifted in the direction of the alt-right, both in terms of moderation incidents and, as recently seen, staffing incidents.

Gina has outlined her philosophy regarding the management of Fosstodon and its role in the greater fediverse, however this blog does not address any of the specific problems we, and our users, have observed from their community.

We are increasingly unconvinced that the situation will improve in any meaningful way, so we conclude that defederation is the only option. These conclusions are always disappointing, but as a community of queer hackers, these decisions are necessary to protect the psychological safety of our local Treehouse community.

As we begin to bring our federated relationship with Fosstodon to a close, we encourage our local community to be thoughtful and kind in regard to their frustrations with the Fosstodon community.

To help with continuity, instead of immediate defederation, Fosstodon will be upgraded to a full limit with report suppression in a few hours following this announcement. This will allow local users to continue to interact with Fosstodon users that they explicitly consent to interacting with while they make the transition to a new instance, and allows for reversal if Fosstodon commits to acceptable management practices which we have already outlined in our discussions with Gina.

In the event that nothing meaningfully changes, Fosstodon will then be fully defederated on July 1.

Views on the Fediverse

Hi all, I’ve been wanting to start a blog since forever, and here we finally are! In this post I’ll lay out some thoughts about recent d...

Gina
the limit has now been implemented. for transparency, here is our moderation log entry for it:
@ariadne it was a mistake trying to read that blogpost like a drinking game
@ariadne fully support your position on this. Kudos
@ariadne Thank you for this thorough and well read response to the situation. I'm not a member of TreeHouse but it speaks well to its community that you are able to convene with your moderators and willing to speak up and out in this situation, and see through the issues that are at the core of the "fosstodon situation".

I originally presided on fosstodon, and I left because I saw it as not saveable. I would have loved to return if it turned the ship around but they do not want it to be that kind of place, evidently.
@ariadne What baffles me in the situation is that there seems to be quite a lot of people who are saying that instances should not defederate fosstodon because it is so big, as it would inconvenience so many people. Ignoring that kind of behavior and just looking elsewhere gives us the current *waves around* situation! I can just guess how much crap is going to be flinged towards you for this, which truly sucks. But at the same time I like that you are showing example.

@orva I am not a believer in "too big to fail."

We got to this situation with mastodon.social, and with a number of other instance admins, managed to get Mastodon gGmbH to commit to improvements in moderation of mastodon.social.

Fosstodon can make these same commitments and then nobody would care about defederation.

But we can't work with an instance admin who is fine with deputizing people who don't really understand the purpose of moderation (and thus only want the power for punching down, rather than punching up).

@ariadne @orva “Too big to fail” almost always is another way of saying “too big to exist”.
@ariadne I share your outlook, having read the statement that you linked at the beginning of this thread. I'm inclined to migrate, both in principle and because I enjoy following you and other treehouse users. But it would be easier to evaluate the servers available if treehouse enumerated its moderated servers.
@gordonmessmer it is available to those who are logged in. we don't publicly disclose to non-logged in users because of harassment.

@ariadne

There is an interesting commentary at @Gina's "Views on the Fediverse" which speaks volumes to an often-played gambit in the "But Muh Free Speech!!" playground:

"It’s a laissez-faire type tolerance that has made for a mostly progressive society where plurality of thought is considered normal. Where opinions sometimes hurt, but we’ll fight for each other's right to have that opinion."

"we’ll fight for each other's right to have that opinion"

Here's where the gambit fails

You may have (and express) your opinion as you wish, anywhere you wish

The core issue is that no one owes you an audience

Everyone else has an equal and reciprocal right to not have to read or hear a thing you say

Shocking, I know, but here we are

@FinchHaven @Gina the gambit fails because I, nor anyone else on treehouse's staff, are willing to fight for someone's right to simp for ICE 🙃

@ariadne

Exactly

It's really interesting how many times These People(tm) fall back on "But you just *have* to listen to meee!!!"

cc @Gina

@ariadne @FinchHaven See the relevant XKCD for my take on it. It's their right to have that opinion, and it's everyone else's right to stop relaying their messages in response. They can go preach to the pigeons in a public park if they want an audience that won't talk back.
Free Speech

xkcd

@becomethewaifu @ariadne @FinchHaven

I’ve never liked that XKCD because it does the traditional US thing of conflating free speech and constitutionally protected free speech. The US constitution was written in a time when governments were run by aristocracy and were the only centralised power structures to worry about and explicitly constrains the power of the government (mostly the Federal government, though later SCOTUS ruling have broadened the interpretation to state governments in some cases). This leads to the common belief in the USA that oppression is best handled by the private sector. Modern notions of free speech consider other forms of censorship, such as a new oligopoly refusing to run particular stories. No one owes you a soap box, but if a handful of people can buy all of the soap boxes then that’s a problem for free speech.

One of the nice things about the Fediverse is that there is no such centralised power structure (though mastodon.social has far too heavy a weighting) and so suppression of free speech is not an issue. And if, with no central coordination, most people decide that they don’t want to listen to you, then maybe it’s time to consider that your opinions might be the problem.

@ariadne @FinchHaven “We will not imprison or kill you for having this opinion” != “there are no consequences”

@ariadne @FinchHaven the only way that a change of guard of admin/moderators can work and has worked to rescue a Nazi Bar instance before, is for the new admins to very immediately put down a new set of rules, and say don’t like it, get out. Then follow through. Actually be willing to alienate people, even ‘friendly’ people, ‘just concerned’ people — because like it or not, you’re currently running a Nazi bar, and you have to want to change that, fast.

Bringing a set of positive intentions just doesn’t cut it.

@ariadne @FinchHaven I have seen this work once. And when I say work — I mean “had any success repairing any federation relationships”. Plenty of places stayed blocking it. Plenty of people still think of it as “wasn’t that one a Nazi bar?” (or to be more accurate, “wasn’t that a channer hole?”).
It got smaller, there were loud, infuriated exits. It will never be the same, but it got fucking better and the people there are now safer and happier. That’s what you have to be willing to go through.
@ariadne one of the greatest things of queer communities is how generally the focus is on taking care of each other and not on "free speech". Thank you very much for your work, it makes the place truly feel safe.
@ariadne Damn, looks like I'm switching 😭