Mastodawn

blabaere May 26

TIL why (in British English) we don't use a dot after the “St” short form of “Street”.

The “t” in “St” is *not* the second letter of “Street”, but the sixth. So it's not an abbreviation (like “Prof.” for “Professor”, “etc.” in “et cetera”, etc.), it's a contraction (like “Dr” in “Doctor”, “Mr” in “Mister”, “St” in “Saint” and so on) and contractions don't have a dot.

🤯

I assumed it was just a weird English thing, but turns out I found the only language feature that's entirely consistent

scattershot May 16

@alderwick fact of the day! Love it.

Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻May 16

Hi @alderwick, lol, so in fact it's
S4t

plungepool May 16

@alderwick that is interesting, because in american english we use a dot for Dr. and Mr. and St. (saint) very very consistently, but much more rarely for St (street) when writing out addresses

Andy Alderwick May 18

@plungepool I love how “Street” is the partial exception! I read up that US English uses the dot everywhere — yay for consistency!

Steve Glover May 22

@alderwick Looks like a step on the "-ise/-ize" pathway and may eventually have a similar effect....

Original English - uses both depending on etymology

American English - settles on -ize

British English - keeps on with both.

But then there's the bit I can't verify: apparently some British English spellcheckers were created from American versions by doing a global search / replace leading to

British English - starts losing -ize.

So, is British English losing the dot across the board?

Andy Alderwick May 22

@akicif Thanks to https://mastodon.scot/@allypally/114533536372164122 I see that losing the dots for “Mr” etc. is a very recent phenomenon, so there's bound to be plenty of expert accounts and evidence to suggest why! (Thanks again, @allypally!)

AllyPally (@allypally@mastodon.scot)

@alderwick@merveilles.town In Scotland, still (sadly) part of the U.K., in the 60s I was taught to write St., Dr., Mr., Esq., and so on, all with dots.

mastodon.scot

AllyPally May 22

@alderwick @akicif It’s possible I had old-fashioned teachers. They were almost all approaching retirement age back then, so they were educated before the Great War.

Steve Glover May 24

@allypally @alderwick I'm a bit younger, then. Most of mine between 8 and 15 had been of military age in WW2 (during which my own parents were at school)

Michael Brandtner May 17

@alderwick Mind blown.

@alderwick
now i wonder how Mrs came about 🤔

Andy Alderwick May 18

@yrlaNor I know! You spotted that I didn't include that example

I thought the long form was “missus” but of course that has no “r”

Mark Mason May 18

@alderwick @yrlaNor could be short for Mistress.

@markmason @alderwick @yrlaNor I believe that is the case... but no citation, sorry!

Andy Alderwick May 18

@carusb @markmason @yrlaNor My research on the only case I know (Discworld's Granny Weatherwax insisting on being called “Mistress Weatherwax” by those she didn't like) has led me to this esteemed organ:

https://www.askamanager.org/2024/05/coworkers-message-me-hi-with-nothing-else-younger-coworker-thinks-im-tech-illiterate-and-more.html#comment-4722953

“‘Mr.’ started as ‘Master’ (as in, ‘the master of their craft,’ especially since many last names originated from people’s trades), and was pronounced as ‘Mister’ before getting contracted to ‘Mr.’ So having people call you ‘Mister [name]’ was a sign of deference. ‘Mistress’ was the equivalent of ‘Master’ before getting contracted to ‘Missus’ and ‘Mrs.’, and it too was an honorific that referred to a woman who was at the top of her game. And that’s why there’s an extra ‘r’ in ‘Mrs.’ even though we pronounce it ‘missus.’”

@alderwick @markmason @yrlaNor I think there are several Shakespeare characters called Mistress (apart from his dark mistress!), eg Mistress Quickly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistress_Quickly

Mistress Quickly - Wikipedia

Arthur van der Harg May 19

@alderwick @carusb @markmason @yrlaNor German and Dutch have Meister and meester for the “skilled” meaning. It seems more likely that Middle English had a similar word that transformed into master in one meaning and mister in another, doesn’t it?

Edelruth In The Wrong Timeline May 30

@alderwick @yrlaNor

It's an abbreviated "mistress", from the old usage as a married woman.

@yrlaNor @alderwick It's a contraction of Mistress, and the pronunciation is just that with some consonants worn off by use.

Daniel Barlow May 19

@threedaymonk @yrlaNor @alderwick interesting article about the origin of Mrs, suggests it wasn't originally a designator of marital status but of social status

(Maybe you already knew this, sharing it anyway because I didn't)

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/mistress-miss-mrs-or-ms-untangling-the-shifting-history-of-titles

Mistress, Miss, Mrs or Ms: untangling the shifting history of titles

In a paper published in the autumn 2014 issue of History Workshop Journal Dr Amy Erickson unravels the fascinating history of the titles used to address women.

University of Cambridge

Andy Alderwick May 19

@dan Thank you for sharing this definitive link!

@yrlaNor I love the idea of the consonants having been worn off through overuse

@alderwick So why then is it "Dr. Someone"? Or is that the American way?

Andy Alderwick May 18

@maikm Yep American English uses that 100% but we tend not to use the dot. It's not an Error if we do sneak a dot in, though: it took me a long time to get used to “Dr” but “Prof.”

zombiecide May 18

Andy Alderwick May 18

@zombiecide I think I've seen that in the US but I could be making that up! Despite it being a contraction, Brits shouldn't* use apostrophes at all in all the examples I've given.

* I do see *thousand yard stare* many examples of simple plurals having apostrophes (“fish and chip's with mushy pea's”) that we might as well call that official.

zombiecide May 18

@alderwick (snicker)

I guess for many native speakers it just doesn't make a difference if you're dealing with a plural or a contraction?

Andy Alderwick May 18

@zombiecide I think when you mentioned “speakers” you got the exact issue: I see this most often for small businesses (like the fish and chip shop example) that deal with the bulk of their lives verbally and through reading, then all of a sudden they need to write a price list and they try to write as they speak.

zombiecide May 18

@alderwick yes, I mean, people get it either way? maybe you can even make the customers feel smart?

mirabilos May 19

@alderwick @zombiecide no, definitely don’t make that apostrophe official

We call it Deppenapostroph (often jokingly written “Deppenapo’stroph”) in German (= idiot’s apostroph).

zombiecide May 19

@mirabilos read up about it the other day and it turns out the version with apostrophe actually predates the Duden rule to not use it

mirabilos May 19

@zombiecide it’s still wrong, independent of whatever the Duden says

zombiecide May 19

@mirabilos it's a bloody spelling convention

and, as I tried to hint at, one where the version we were taught as "wrong" predates the rule saying it's wrong

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4chsischer_Genitiv#Orthographie

https://www.germanistik.uni-mainz.de/files/2015/03/Nuebling-2014-Apostroph-IdS-Jahrbuch.pdf (fun read!)

Sächsischer Genitiv – Wikipedia

Andy Alderwick May 19

@mirabilos @zombiecide Haha I love putting the silly apostrophe in “Deppenapo’stroph”!

We malign a noble trade in the UK, because it's called the “greengrocer's apostrophe” — but of course we lacked the humour to put an incorrect apostrophe in there too. An opportunity missed!

Schroedinger May 18

@alderwick So we should indicate by S't, M'r, D'r?

Ben Rush May 19

@alderwick Thank you for the elucidation, I hadn't considered that before…

@alderwick is this proof that Mr. Bean isn't British?

@mattg @alderwick Which also means Dr Pepper is British.

@bryanredeagle @alderwick seems that Dr Pepper instead of Dr. Pepper might be a somewhat recent affectation. Probably trying to look cool for the British Invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Pepper#Name

Dr Pepper - Wikipedia

Andy Alderwick May 19

@mattg @bryanredeagle Hmm, perhaps “Mr.” Bean is ruthlessly trying to appeal to worldwide audiences as well.

He certainly knows how to appear like he has no idea what's going on, but it might all be an act

Andy Alderwick May 19

@bryanredeagle @mattg My worldview is shattered right now

mgorny-nyan (he)

🙀🚂🐧May 19

@alderwick, but what if I deliberately mean it as the second letter? xP

Haelwenn /элвэн/

@mgorny @alderwick Could write it as Str. to confuse programmers :D

Daniel Bohrer May 19

@lanodan @alderwick @mgorny not German programmers though
(it's the usual abbreviation for "Straße" here)

Marcin Cieślak May 30

@daniel_bohrer @lanodan @alderwick @mgorny but is it Siemensstraße or Werner-von-Siemens-Straße :/

Andy Alderwick May 19

@lanodan @mgorny Ooo yes please! Perhaps I should replace my middle name with two names, “[object“ and “Object]”

Haelwenn /элвэн/

@alderwick @mgorny Not gonna lie, I'd love to put NaN in mine.

Andy Alderwick May 19

@mgorny I think you do that at your own risk!! (But I thought I was doing the same as that, last week?

)

Voracious Reader May 19

So not for councils to save a teensy bit of money by not having to include the dot on street name signs?

Andy Alderwick May 19

@lnlyisol The councils must be dripping in money! I know of a road sign (not a street sign, but hear me out) and it points down a junction and it reads

“TO THE CHURCH”

and I never fail to stare at the first two words in utter contempt.

Just imagine if every road sign said “To Manchester”, “To Liverpool”, “To the Train Station” and so on. It would be chaos

Voracious Reader May 19

Surely they'd also need a very carefully balanced set of matching "FROM THE CHURCH" etc. signs so that they don't end up with entire populations crowded into the church, and unable to return to where they came from! 🤯

Andy Alderwick May 19

Voracious Reader May 19

An obvious alternative would be to have an infinite number of "TO <>" signs at every possible location, pointing to every other possible location.
This would mean that there would be no actual space for people anywhere, and while the sign makers and installers would become richer than Elon, the councils would save incredible amounts of money by not printing an infinite number of periods on the infinite number of signs.

@alderwick I think it's the other way round in India. My college name has St. Thomas in it, and haven't noticed anyone using a dot after etc or Prof

Andy Alderwick May 19

@libreinator Wow, thank you for posting! I know at lot of branches of English have different rules, but I didn't expect one to choose the opposite in every case

@alderwick This doesn’t apply to initials in names though. In names with more than one initials, Baby Boomers and Gen X people (at least in my district) use a dot between the initials but not after the last initial, like Foo A.B or A.B.C Bar. AFAIK this is less common among GenZ, who use Foo AB or ABC Bar, and sometimes A.B.C. Bar (no spaces after initials). Foo A. B. or A. B. C. Bar are rare in my place.

Dr Andrew A. Adams #FBPE 🔶May 19

@alderwick @deivudesu
But why isn't it S't?

デイヴ May 19

@a_cubed @alderwick Why would it? are you thinking of contractions like `it is` → `it's`? In these cases that's a contraction between 2 words…

@deivudesu @a_cubed @alderwick iirc some single-word place names are abbreviated with an apostrophe on road signs and such, but you can save an apostrophe here by just relying on the Mrs/Dr/Mr format

Dr Andrew A. Adams #FBPE 🔶May 19

@deivudesu @alderwick
An apostrophe in English means a contraction of one as well as two words. howe'er, ma'am.

デイヴ May 19

@a_cubed @alderwick Fair enough. Then I don't know why. Guessing just slow evolution and wanting to minimise characters

Though one thing about the typical examples you cite above, is that the apostrophe tends to replace a single letter (at most a single sound), which is a bit different from a full on contraction…

Dr Andrew A. Adams #FBPE 🔶May 19

@deivudesu @alderwick
I was actually being facetious. 😀