Chris PetrilliMy sister sent me this and boy do I feel this in my bones. My 50+ bones.
retech@petrillic I'm an X. When I was 21 I spoke with a Soc. prof & said our parents dissected every institution we had, laid open the corpse of society, tried to find answers to all of it. Which everyone should. But they did it when we were their children, in front of us, giving us the entire world at the earliest age humans had ever done it. But they never gave us any structure to replace it. Something we need to start with. The brightest kids with no direction & no rules left to fend for ourselves.
Bill Seitz
@r3t3ch @petrillic you can co-create new rules with a tribe, esp if you live close
@billseitz @petrillic I think it's deeper than just basics like don't be a dick to ppl. We have large long lasting structure as a base to jump from. It evolved to be that. Tearing it down was their goal. But they never asked why it was there & what purpose it served. You cannot give children the knowledge of old sages, the tools of mad scientists, the creativity of the arts, leave them alone, and expect them to generate a functioning society. If you do... well you get this shithole we're in now.
@r3t3ch @petrillic Chesterton's salad fork.
@r3t3ch @petrillic more seriously, what structures are you focusing on
@billseitz @petrillic Gov't, Social order/society, Religion. To be clear, I have never agreed with the way the presented to me & am 100% atheist. When hippies actively attacked those & showed us their flaws & reasons why we needed to change, that's wonderful. Not so sure it's wise to show 5yr olds, but the intent was good. But they never offered fuck all to replace it. Instead they became the sellouts they rallied against, in greater strength than ever before. We then, by teens, had to ask>>
@billseitz @petrillic >> why the fuck we should even try. We're smart, we've got a great start, we know how to survive, we'll just take whatever we can and damn the consequences, that's what are parents did. Granted, this is broad strokes, obviously there are exceptions. But this is a generation, not small groups or individuals. I think the generational malaise and fuck this shit POV of Gen X is pretty clearly derived from this early exposure and complete lack of alternatives. You need to have>>
@r3t3ch @petrillic have you ever read Diamond Age? It has many interesting bits on social structures and raising children.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/DiamondAge
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/DiamondAge
@billseitz @petrillic Nope. Granted I could be full of shit, I'm ok with that. But this just was my observations as a human. I'm very much anti(group)social, not a fan of gov't but don't know an alt way to get people to not be dicks, and think religion has and will keep us from every living on other planets. But I have those POVs because I got to see them. I've never read much on societies past the Republic and a few of Adam Smith's essays.
@r3t3ch @petrillic I'm pretty sure people were dicks before, too. You're having RETVRN nostalgia for a past you didn't experience.
@r3t3ch @petrillic I think most people are fine going through life staying in lanes. And most are still doing that.
In the past, opting out of that required becoming a loner/rebel/outlaw.
Or joining a Secret Society.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/HistoricalIlluminatusChronicles
In the past, opting out of that required becoming a loner/rebel/outlaw.
Or joining a Secret Society.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/HistoricalIlluminatusChronicles
@r3t3ch @petrillic now there's a lot of people given meta-freedom, but few have come up with a more flexible variety. (Also there's still a lot of risk in seeking non-standard ways making a living.)
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/NetworkEnlightenment
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/NetworkEnlightenment
@billseitz @petrillic It still does. Want to be an artist or promote your business, want to collaborate with colleagues or start a book club... do it on Facebook or Xitter or it'll never take off. That's a helluva lane to contain the planet too. But it's working pretty damn well.
@billseitz @petrillic Not at all. I don't think humans have ever done anything but feed off one another. In regards to Gen X, I think it was the generation to get the first (probably last) big headstart on the others. Exposure and knowledge the parents didn't generally experience until well into their late 20's or more. But that too was a lesson in human potential to implode. My personal POV is that the species is incapable to move past this level.
@r3t3ch @petrillic you might also like this series on Communities that Abide.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/2013-07-03-OrlovCommunitiesThatAbide
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/2013-07-03-OrlovCommunitiesThatAbide
@r3t3ch @petrillic and this (more chill) effort in a San Francisco neighborhood.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/2024-03-03-BennNeighborhoodUpdate11TheVillageRetreatTreehouseAndCohousing
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/2024-03-03-BennNeighborhoodUpdate11TheVillageRetreatTreehouseAndCohousing
@billseitz @petrillic My rather dark take on anything like that is very fast failure. Unless you can raise an entire generation of humans without outside influence in some utopian ethos, the failure rate is 100%. Greed is the reason. All forms of current human governance (small to huge) always end up rewarding the squeaky wheel. A commune or community cannot sustain if any individual wants 1% more than their share for any sustained amount of time. The ruleset to stop it will degrade the group.
@r3t3ch @petrillic there are some long-lived intentional communities out there. So not *quite* 100%.
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/IntentionalCommunity
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/IntentionalCommunity
Shannon Clark@r3t3ch @billseitz @petrillic There are, in fact, lots of long lasting examples
- I have friends who have lived in the same cohousing community for going on close to 20 years (in Berkeley). They in fact work as consultants to other cohousing and similar groups nationwide and internationally. And have for decades. It may not get a lot of press but lots of people quietly form variations of cohousing (on a larger scale The Villages senior living communities are a partial take on this as well)
@r3t3ch @billseitz @petrillic In Israel there are many long lasting Kibbutz (though I haven’t looked into their most recent history)
But community and shared groups don’t have to mean literally sharing living together. There are many smaller scale examples that get little attention but are powerful and meaningful.
My small community in San Jose has a community pool (I’m one of 188 households that own it in common) non-owners have a 5yr waitlist. We have events year round pool in warm months
@r3t3ch @billseitz @petrillic Such groups take effort to sustain (a board and processes to raise funds and pay the budgets/maintain the facilities etc) but they have succeeded in doing that for over 50 years. In Chicago I was part of two long running coops (both ended in the mid2000’s though the Seminary Co-op Bookstore remains as a non-profit bookstore) but also part of a condo association that had been around for decades and managed our building with long term care (and little drama just skill
@Rycaut @billseitz @petrillic A group bookstore or a pool are vastly different than a group of humans relying on one another for essential life services. While they do not need to live together to do this, they do need a critical level of interdependency. And doing so without outside funding or influence seems also impossible (if the general examples you site are all). I'm honestly not looking for an argument and unwilling to sustain one. If you have some hard data to share, please post a link.
@Rycaut @billseitz @petrillic Let them know if they ever need a live-in maintenance dude to give me a call. Sculpting seems to have giving me a great skill set for doing that now, but being in SF around the artists and galleries that support my work would be wonderful. I'd also love to be proven wrong in this topic. The ones I've known have all fallen into some form of Draconian parliaments.
@r3t3ch @billseitz @petrillic I don’t know what they need. Though I do know the successful ones I’ve seen are largely driven by being largely equally owned (cohousing here means individuals own their own apartments or small properties but have extensive shared facilities often including large kitchens and frequently share some meals and managing the common spaces. Often they like a co-op or condo have a process to interview new buyers and many limit renting. I lived in one in Oakland for a month