I am nonbinary, and I live in a country where nonbinary isn't legally accepted (but medically accepted, which differs from our neighbouring countries). I don't want a third legal gender, like an X.

Oh, it'd be a good second best, but I want something else. Do away with legal gender altogether. It's a remnant of a time where your gender could make it forbidden to do certain things like voting or join the military or have certain jobs. Leave it in the past. No legal gender marker needed.

"B-b-but spoooorts?! Starsloth, how will we separate people into different classes in sports?"

I dunno, I am not a sports specialist, but as a group humans can be surprisingly clever, I am sure we can find another way. Like maybe after ability? Make true top teams without caring about what genitals people have.

"What about trans people?"

I'll simplify here, to keep it to one post. A medical transition is a question of modifying your outter self to reflect the inner truth. Absolutely no reason to make that much different from today, though I think it should be more easily accessible. Also a question between your medical team, you, and whoever else you want to involve. I am waiting for an appointment myself, it's not dependent on my legal gender.

"But I want to keep looking like a man/woman!"

I am not suggesting we take away the social or medical definitions, just the legal.

"How will we ensure there is no discrimination against women or nonbinaries if we don't have a gender marker in the registers?"

I can't speak for how it works elsewhere, but here discrimination is illegal on a whole slew of criteria, most of which are not in registers, and several of which are explicitly against the law to register (like skin colour and religion and medical conditions). If we include white women in those unregistered reasons maybe we'll start doing a better job of it.

I am not writing this to debate, so I'll probably not continue answering fictive or real questions about how will it workkkkkk, because again humans are smarter when we work in groups, we can figure the rest out together, not all from my brain.

Really appreciate the boosts on the first post in the thread, these kinds of thoughts need spreading. 💚

"What about this other problem, huh?"

Make one improvement at a time, even if there are other problems. It's all a part of a system and everything is connected, yes, but if you live and work within a democracy a big change all at once is extremely unlikely to happen. A whole slew of smaller changes can, together, make everything different, and sometimes that happens in a short time.

I'm not trying to fix advertising, military expansion, or even capitalism with this (though it is a step).

@silhelm I know we are a long way from it being the right time, but I think removing the societal definitions of genders would be a boon.
@silhelm I'd love to see de-professionalisation of sports. or at least this incessant advertising and amount of money poured into it. like maybe make it explicitly nonprofit.

@silhelm and some sports already have categories based e.g. on weight, I'm sure that other sports can find some measurable characteristic that is actually related to the performances in that sport they can use to separate people in fair-ish classes.

I'd expect a significant number of those characteristics to be statistically correlated with sex (rather than gender), but statistically correlated doesn't mean exclusive to.

And other sports may just as well find out that they don't really need those categories anyway.

@valhalla @silhelm it would be cool to have BMI classifications for running.
"bit that is complicated!"
Computers can deal with complicated stuff. Use them.
@silhelm Also "titles". It would save a lot of bother to get rid of Mr, Ms, Miss, and Mrs. I'm not keen on Sir, Lord, etc either.
@silhelm For me the only purpose of getting a non-binary gender marker is because I wont get gendered mail anymore
@silhelm unfortunately military conscription is very much still a thing here. and could become a thing again in Germany basically whenever the government feels like it.

@silhelm

In all of the important and complex discussion of gender and anatomy, there's one very basic question which seldom, if ever, gets asked:

"In what situations does it actually matter?"

It matters to the individual, of course, because it's part of who they are.

It matters, or should matter, to lovers, family and friends, for the same reason.

It matters if you want to make babies the old-fashioned way.

It matters in some medical situations.

It should NOT matter in law (other than to ensure equal treatment and guard against hate), welfare, education, employment or societal "value" of the individual.

It CERTAINLY should not matter in day-to-day general interaction with people in public (unless the person chooses to engage in discussion).

@silhelm Gender markers should go the way of segregation.
@silhelm I'd quite happily see it just cease to be recorded basically anywhere.

I've had arguments with feminists about why I refuse to use Ms. They say people shouldn't use Miss or Mrs because marital status isn't relevant. I say gender isn't either. Respect would be to use my name as I give it.

My doctors need to know my anatomy and physiology. Everything else is bullshit or personal. I'm sure some would get all upset about "women being erased" but we don't have separate loos for supporters of different teams. Events for people interested in Star Trek happen without any official "Trekkie y/n" checkbox anywhere. Those groups are not being erased. The WI will still exist, if enough women want it.
@silhelm One place it is helpful is to measure inequalities. Just like for ethnic or social groups. If you can't capture a characteristic, you can't unpack areas of need based on that characteristic.
@silhelm agree 100%, been thinking about this myself for a while
@silhelm TELL EM MONARCH 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️
@silhelm the only sound rebuttal I've heard of this is that we would lose discrimination statistics in the workplace. Like, gender gap would not be mesurable if there's no gender to begin with.
@silhelm discrimination based on things is imposed to us, so while we would not factor a binary distinction, there's people in power positions that do. So then we need a way to count the disceimination towards people socialized as something, regardless of wether that something is real.
@silhelm It's annoying how some institutions are like "Oh, nonbinary people want a trinary gender system! Since they're all perfectly in the middle with no deviations whatsoever, this would solve it"
I'm nonbinary, I use she/her pronouns, and I'm mostly female. Genders are a spectrum, or perhaps something even more complex. What is it with old government people not understanding spectrums