@1br0wn @jmaris @edri
Idk, I haven't seen the same phenomenon in Polish national politics. Maybe it's because I'm looking wrong, but I haven't seen them be like "oh, bill's unpopular? Let's try it next year".
Also, "you always need to fight" is not an answer to my question. I want to understand the mechanism that makes the proposals like Chat Control appear in the first place.
@wolf480pl @1br0wn @jmaris I totally share your frustration about having fight bad proposals like #ChatControl, #EUProtect, and #LinkTax over and over. I do this for a living. 🫣
But consider this: how do we know that those bad proposals are unpopular? People keep on voting for far-right, conservative, and economically liberal majorities both nationally and in EU elections. The result is people in power who support mass surveillance and other rights-crushing policies.
I don't think most...
@wolf480pl @1br0wn @jmaris I don't think most people realise they're undermining their own rights by voting this way, they might do that for many other reasons.
But we've got to consider that this stuff comes back over and over because it is what a majority of Europeans votes for. Seen like this it is less of a "the EU is bad" problem and more of a question of how to make more people aware that destroying democracy and fundamental rights isn't in their best interest.
@ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
Hmm ok but when in Poland, PiS passes welfare plans or bans abortion, I know people who think this is good. They're my neighbours.
When EU tries to pass ChatControl, it feels like an external force. I don't know anyone who thinks this is a good idea.
And also, AFAIK only EC can propose bills. What far-right people are there in the EC? There's one guy from ECR, zero from PfE and ESN.
1/
Also, IIRC some of those bad policies were attempted to be sneaked in as one bad article in an otherwise good bill. Could it be that MEPs just don't read that stuff before voting?
Anyway, my frustration comes from a perceived lack of transparency and accountability. And I don't know if this is my fault, because the information is out there and I just didn't know where to look for it,
or if it's a systemic problem with the EU's legislative process.
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
As someone who worked at the Commission for a few years, I asked the same questions. I learned that the problem is that the #EuropeanCommission is lobbied all the time by industry and only occasionally by citizens' groups, which have tiny resources compared with industry. The EU treaties and institutions are supposed to strike a balance between both sides but arguably are structured to favour industry. The Commission is powerful because... 1/3
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
... the #Commission services have the 'right of initiative': they propose new laws, and write the first drafts of the legal texts, which they then send to Member State experts in Council, and MEPs in Parliament. The Member State experts are themselves overwhelmingly influenced by the needs of their national industries or transnational corporations important in their countries (like Apple in Ireland).
2/3
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
3/3:
The MEPs each have hundreds of issues to consider but are primarily influenced by the need to please their electorate and keep their jobs. The electorate, considered as a group, are usually inattentive to:
1. The needs of minorities / outgroups,
2. Long-term considerations like climate change,
3. Concerns espoused mainly by highly educated specialists, like how AI could seriously damage society, or the erosion of institutions that protect equality.
@AidanK @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
Ok, so that can kinda explain how ChatControl happens:
1. someone in the Comission gets told by industry that it's a good idea, and genuinely believes it
2. Noone in Council feels like their country is getting the short end of the stick, so whatever
3. MEPs don't pay attention until there's a public outrage.
1/
@AidanK @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
Now, I have another case that's even more astonishing to me:
A few years back, a conservative from Poland was the EU Commissioner of Agriculture
During his term, the Comission proposed a bill that:
- nominally was supposed to protect the environment (so not very conservative)
- would hurt farmers so badly that they started protesting
- including farmers in Poland (so not even pro-Poland bias)
2/
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
He is also duty bound to introduce initiatives that are in line with the overall policy of the Von Der Leyen College of Commissioners. Including, back then, the EU Green Deal.
If you're referring to the Nature Restoration Bill, that's a really good example of how hard it is to make good policy: claims of the harms it would do to farmers were wildly exaggerated by the farming representative organisations around Europe-
1/5
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
...The farming organisations themselves are often more influenced by the needs of the giant transnational food processors than those of ordinary farmers - many of their senior staff are jockeying to be rewarded after retirement with cushy, lucrative positions on food industry linked boards.
Sometimes they manipulate farmers into acting against their own interests with culture war stuff. In this case they were successful in watering down the Bill.
2/5
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
In general I think the EU is a good idea, but we are living in a neoliberal capitalist milieu that continually drives all our public institutions to serve the people less and less, and capital more and more.
Now the whole Green Deal has been dropped in favour of the weapons industry and I worry that we may have missed our last chance to prevent catastrophic climate change.
3/5
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
I am a pretty optimistic person and history shows a progression away from tyrannies towards wider and deeper enfranchisement. Every decade, in virtually every country, education and health improve.
But sometimes in the early mornings I wake and wonder if this is how humanity finally fails. #FarRight with their hands on OUR resources, using them not to solve our urgent problems but to pummel one another's countries until the planet becomes unlivable.
4/5
@AidanK @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
With all respect, I'm here to understand how the EU institutions work, not figure out whom we should stop, and in what order.
Now, back on topic:
So you're saying the comissioners are primarily executing the Comission President's agenda? Does that mean the public should hold Commission President, accountable for all actions of the Commission, and not individual commissioners?
1/
@AidanK @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
Secondly, regarding GAEC 8, I tried searching on the web for the purpose of laying land fallow, in Polish.
I could find articles how the EU wanted to enforce that, then backed away, and how it wouldn't be that bad economically for farmers because a) higher grain prices good, and b) it'd mostly impact German farmers, giving Polish ones advantage.
2/
@AidanK @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
There was also some article on EU website that didn't explain much.
So it seems to me that
1) you might be right about food producers manipulating farmers to their disadvantage, but also
2) it seems like the Comission did a poor job explaining to the public what it's trying to achieve and why it's good.
Also, apparently GEAC 8 has been a plan known for years but the protests were last minute
3/
@wolf480pl @ilumium @1br0wn hey, I'd really recommend you take a look at my overview of how the EU makes laws, here: https://unfsckthe.eu/pages/getting_started/legislative_procedure.html
It will help understand a lot :)
@Aufrechtgehn @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
hm....
do they want to use that to surveil the more extreme parties?
@Aufrechtgehn @ilumium @1br0wn @jmaris
wait what?
Aren't those centrist parties the same parties that are pushing for climate protection the hardest in all of EU?
@ilumium It's wrong to assume that shitty proposals are only coming frmo far-right conservative arseholes. It's popular among all political stripes. One will pretend it's about control, while the other will claim it's about protection.
In the end, they're all wrong, and their proposals are plain stupid and evil, regardless of their intentions.
Wolf480pl
Jan Penfrat
AidanK 🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Jordan Maris 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 #NAFO
Aufrechtgehn
Elric