Conversely, I don't consider having a machine rapidly output media to impersonally proliferate your message to be a good faith interaction for your audience but I'm not the one with the banhammer

https://lemmy.world/post/29036642

Conversely, I don't consider having a machine rapidly output media to impersonally proliferate your message to be a good faith interaction for your audience but I'm not the one with the banhammer - Lemmy.World

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/29035971 [https://lemmy.world/post/29035971] > Posting here for preservation’s sake > > Image in removed comment was the attached Palpatine image. Curious to see if the same admin mod would remove these screenshots if I crosspost them to [email protected] [/c/[email protected]] , which they also admin and mod. Would I get a fair trial there or will my dissenting and others’ be silenced? > > You can’t say you’re against disinfo if you’re knowing and intentionally promulgating it and abetting its usage. They also didn’t even remove the Reddit watermark. > > This is why I don’t assign identities unto myself, because you criticize one action done wrong by leaders of an ideology or movement and bam! you’re shut out of it completely. They’ve lost the aid of an ally and progress is impeded by being shorted a participant trying to correct the course.

I disagree with how a lot of that thread was moderated, and I do think that a permaban was a heavy-handed. Not that you weren’t necessarily entirely without fault.

I’d say it’s a combo of BPR and PTB

This is a copyleft, pro genAI instance. We don’t even agree that copyright or intellectual property is moral, let alone the argument tat keeps popping up that it’s “stealing”. Once you release an idea to the world, it becomes part of the human condition. It doesn’t belong to you, and saying you “own” something that’s a part of another person’s consciousness is akin to saying slavery is acceptable.

There are plenty of safe spaces for that neoliberal capitalist bullshit, but on an anarchist instance is not it. They deserved it, and I think it should be made into an instance-wide rule that anti-AI conversation be banned for being in direct contradictions to our morals and political philosophy, with repeat violators being banned.

Those aren’t the only reasons to dislike AI. So, claiming that any argument against AI is inherently neoloberal capitalist is ignorant and childish.

Even were that true, which is isn’t, this is our instance, to run as we see fit. It isn’t up to right-wing liberals to decide how an anarchist collective runs their own space. If you don’t like genAI, so somewhere else and don’t post your cultist brigading bullshit here. You sure as fuck don’t see us going to .world and harassing you lot over AI, do you?

So what, the respect we show you is too fucking much to return?

I see. So your method of arguing is to label anyone whom you disagree with as “right-wing liberals” and you don’t intend on having a genuine conversation.
no, my method of arguing is to label liberals who espouse right-wing capitalist ideals as right-wing liberals. if you don’t like being called right-wing, don’t fucking pander to corporate bullshit in a LEFTIST INSTANCE. it’s really not rocket science, guys.
Then you must first explain how all arguments against AI are right-wing capitalist ideals. Which you have not done that, so the way you are acting is preposterous.
  • Being anti-AI is an intrinsically reactionary position to hold.
  • Leftists should be trying to seize the means of production, not trying to destroy them.
  • The anti-AI movement puts heavy emphasis on the impact on artists, but most leftists don’t believe in copyright or the ownership/privatization of ideas and that includes things like art. Artists absolutely should be publicly funded and properly compensated for their work. But simply fighting against AI tooling will accomplish nothing, and arguably serves to perpetuates copyright rent-seeking by corporations and individuals.
  • Fighting against or banning the use of AI tools in leftist spaces will accomplish nothing, except to give the capitalists an advantage over leftists. The genie is already out of the bottle. AI tooling, although incredibly annoying in some aspects (such as when it gets inserted into fucking notepad) is also extremely powerful and useful for certain applications. Why would we want to fight with a hand tied behind our backs over some romantic idyll of pre-gen AI times?
  • A hammer can be a tool or a weapon. Same with AI. Nobody is talking about banning hammers, despite the fact they are often used as weapons or for nefarious purposes.
  • The anti-AI movement is primitivist and regressive in nature. It hearkens back to the “good old days” when artists were well compensated by rich patrons, and artisans and skilled craftsmen filled every small town. It’s a fantasy that never really existed, and one that will never exist under capitalism.
  • FOSS AI projects are available such as Db0’s AI Horde which seeks to democratic access to GenAI. There is no requirement to use corporate tooling.
  • That’s an opinion, not a fact. And while I agree that in many circumstances there are plenty of reactionary responses, it does not get anywhere close to 100%.
  • Irrelevant to the point.
  • You’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI.
  • I never made any claims about banning AI or even fighting against it, really. Not sure why you’re ascribing that to me, and it doesn’t provide any argument to the main claim that “disliking AI is always from right-wing capitalism”.
  • While I get your overall point here and mostly agree that AI is ‘just a tool’, the rest of your point is based on banning, which is not part of the discussion. Also, it’s a pretty false equivalent argument, but I assume you’re not expecting it to be a 1:1 comparison, just trying to make the point that it’s just a tool and should not be labeled as inherently bad.
  • Once again, you’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI. I don’t know if there’ some big coordinated “anti-AI movement” that makes that argument in particular and I’ve somehow never heard of it or seen any evidence of, but it seems to me you’ve created a fake, absurd strawman.
  • That’s great and helps obviate one of my main issues with AI.
  • In total, you’ve made zero arguments for the logic that any sentiment of disliking AI should be met with hostility and all comes from a source of “right-wing liberals”. All I see is unfounded attempts of vilifying people who simply disagree with you by shoving a label onto them. Another way to describe this is “bad-jacketing”.

    I suggest you read about “bad-jacketing”. Particularly as a moderator and that it is described in rule 1 of the instance.

    I will now disengage because I have ample evidence that you and _cryptagion don’t intend on a genuine interaction.

    Not Liking Someone Doesn’t Mean They’re a Cop | Anarchist Archive

    Anarchist Archive

    You’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI.

    @[email protected] is literally an admin, they have access to voter and user metric data that you don’t. Who are you to claim there isn’t brigading or a movement going on? That’s right you don’t and can’t actually know better than they do. If I didn’t know better I might think you were trying to deny this issue due to your part in it.

    @Flatworm7591 - Divisions by zero

    wiki-user: unruffled > “In every State, the government is nothing but a permanent conspiracy on the part of the minority against the majority, which it enslaves and fleeces.” > >- Mikhail Bakunin Queer/trans gender abolitionist | anarchist | piracy enthusiast aspe:keyoxide.org:LSZT4AL3BUPMJZGHIJAVZAJLHY

    @[email protected] You have no post or comment history whatsoever for two years, yet here you are in this thread downvoting comments. Sus…

    @[email protected] @[email protected] This is what I mean when I say there is brigading here, people are using bots or their own alt accounts to vote on accounts

    @Flatworm7591 - Divisions by zero

    wiki-user: unruffled > “In every State, the government is nothing but a permanent conspiracy on the part of the minority against the majority, which it enslaves and fleeces.” > >- Mikhail Bakunin Queer/trans gender abolitionist | anarchist | piracy enthusiast aspe:keyoxide.org:LSZT4AL3BUPMJZGHIJAVZAJLHY

    Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I’ve proposed in [email protected] to update the instance rules to disallow anti-genAI trolling in communities where genAI is allowed. They can take their pro-copyright-rentseeking campaign elsewhere. Don’t know why they thought it would fly here.

    I’ve got no real problem with folks taking that position tbh, but it’s not ok to dogpile posts on our communities like has happened here. I’m also somewhat sympathetic to the argument that GenAI is having an impact on artists’ livelihoods. But they haven’t connected the dots that this is only an issue because of greedy corporations trying to fuck over artists. They are directing all their anger towards GenAI instead of the real source of the problem. By all means advocate for greedy corporations to stop using AI to increase their profits at the expense of artists. But to come into a leftist space and demand that we stop using AI too is at best tokenistic, and at worst just serves to obfuscate the fundamental problem.

    The users engaged in trolling here and tying to excuse it as “activism” should think harder about who they are fighting with and why. Even if we did capitulate and ban genAI, that would have zero impact on artists, because we don’t pay for artists in the first place. It’s nothing but virtue signalling and tokenism. The Luddites didn’t go around breaking into peoples houses and smashing their spinning wheels. They went to factories owned by rich men and companies to destroy machinery in order to disrupt production and fight for workers rights and safety. Good on them too! If the anti genAI brigade were fighting against Getty’s (or Adobe, etc.) use of AI that might actually have a useful leftist purpose, and the analogy with the Luddites would work. Instead they are here causing a nuisance in a leftist community, over some random crossposted GenAI meme. Good work guys - job done I guess, the capitalists must be quaking in their boots right now because of your “activism”.

    /0 Governance - Divisions by zero

    A community for discussion and democratic decision making in the Divisions by zero. Anyone with voting rights can open a governance thread and initiate a vote or a discussion. There’s no special keywords you must be aware of before you open a thread, but there are some. here’s the governance thread manual [https://github.com/db0/threativore/blob/main/README_manual.md#governance]. ## Answers * What is Governance [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/35725820] * About voting rights and flairs [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/35557475]

    Yeah I agree, the Anti AI movement (and it is a movement) is extremely reactionary and doesn’t accomplish anything. Certainly isn’t helping artists. And yeah they’re not even comparable to luddites who went after factories back in the day. Anti-AI trolls are going after individual people, often harassing people, also deciding to use any arguments even ones proven to be lies or faulty. They’re inadvertently helping big corporations by making themselves and their movement look like quacks or trolls.

    Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I’ve proposed in [email protected] to update the instance rules to disallow anti-genAI trolling in communities where genAI is allowed. They can take their pro-copyright-rentseeking campaign elsewhere. Don’t know why they thought it would fly here.

    Did you post it yet? I didn’t see it there.

    The Luddites were a 19th century guerrilla movement that smashed textile machines, burned factories and threatened their owners. But they were not motivated by a fear of technology […] the luddites […] were engaged in the most science-fictional exercise imaginable – asking not what a technology does, but who it does it to and who it does it for. The Luddites, you see, were skilled weavers whose intense physical labor produced the textiles that clothed the nation. The difficulty of their trade – both in terms of esoteric knowledge and physical prowess – allowed them to command high wages and good working conditions.

    All that was threatened by the advent of textile machines, which produced more fabric in less time, and required less skill. The owners of textile factories bought these machines with profits derived from the weavers’ labor, and then used those machines to grind down the weavers. Their hours got longer, their pay got shorter, and many of them were maimed or killed by the new machines.

    Weaving engines are ingenious and delightful machines. The Luddites had no beef with the machines – their cause was the social relations that governed those machines. By painting Luddites as mere technophobes, we strip ourselves of the ability to learn from history. The lesson of the Industrial Revolution is that merely asking what a machine does and not who it does it for and to can lead to literal genocide.

    pluralistic.net/2022/01/04/general-ludd/

    Pluralistic: 04 Jan 2022 – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

    The Luddites had no beef with the machines – their cause was the social relations that governed those machines

    Agreed, and I have no beef with the Luddites. I’m fully supportive of the effort to hold commercial AI corporations accountable for the way they are enabling owners of capital to exploit AI to cause harm to artists and other workers. But if the anti-GenAI crowd followed the example of the Luddites, they shouldn’t be blaming the tooling. If they went after those who create and/or use the tooling to exploit people, rather than attacking those who use the tools (especially for a positive or harmless purpose) then I’d be fully supportive of that goal. Instead they are too busy cyber-bullying fellow Lemmy users and mods.

    Yeah, there was an “anti-art-theft” account on tumblr that just went around harassing people for using ai.
    One person has a pixel art plant pfp which was blurry from image compression, so the account thought it was ai, the person with the plant pfp was harassed about it, even though they didn’t use ai.

    even if they did use ai, I don’t see why you’d want to harass someone for that anyway.

    I think @[email protected] is probably another one, does have history, but 2 months inactive. Maybe I’m being too aggressive but this Anti-AI brigade is out of control.
    I’m not sure about that one but feel free to community ban them if they have been downvoting a lot. I instanced banned the (almost) empty account you mentioned. Fuck those guys. I hope you can feel free to reach out to me or one of the other admins if you get cyberbullied and you need someone to disclose to.
    Hate to disappoint, but I’m a real, live human being.
    That’s good, glad to hear it. That wasn’t really something I was arguing against though, as I have no doubt that some probably many of the vote manipulation accounts out there are manually operated.
    Then I hate to disappoint again, but I’m just some rando that votes of his own accord - not part of some grand “vote manipulation” conspiracy.
    The fact you aren’t banned from dbzer0 is proof enough for me, (at least that it isn’t the obvious kind) since multiple other people have been banned for brigading and vote manipulation.
    Genuine questions: why make it an instance wide rule when those communities can just add it to their own rules?
    I get your point but I’d like to be able to be able to push back against this type of behaviour at an instance level if required, without the anti GenAI crowd complaining about there not being a specific instance level rule against it. I think I’m in favour of generalizing the rule though as suggested by other commenters, so that it covers things like anti-piracy activism in c/piracy too, for example. Some communities are intended for debate, and others are just communities of shared interests where folks want to learn and hang out, but not be dogpiled with hateful comments attacking their interests. And lastly, GenAI is a core founding theme of our instance, so it makes sense (to me) to make the rule instance level as well.
    That’s fair enough, thanks for explaining!