@HeavenlyPossum You're oversimplifying a lot by lumping all non-modern-democratic ideas into the same basket.

There is a distinction between the democracy of the landed gentry, with all of its flaws and inequities, and out and out oligarchy.

And it's right to point out that their acceptance of slavery and their exploitative attitude towards 'the mob' is in contradiction of their stated ideals.

The US founding fathers were hypocrites, not oligarchs (also worshipping them is weird, America).

@BoysenberryCider

If “landed and slave owning elites who monopolized political and economic power for themselves as a class” don’t constitute an oligarchy, I don’t know what would.

Aristocrats taking turns ruling over a subject population is not “democracy of the landed gentry” because it is not democracy at all.

@HeavenlyPossum Your definition of 'democracy' is unhistorically narrow, and 'aristocrat' too wide. Democracy is a system, not a synonym for 'equal, righteous goverment'.

'Demos' + 'kratia' = rule by the people. 'The people' meant 'our kind of people', and excluded many. The franchise has since expanded, which is good.

'Oligos' + 'arkia' = rule by the few, fossilised concentration of power in the hands of a group.

There can be overlap, but you're bending the words to make your point.

@BoysenberryCider

No, I am using these words carefully and precisely. The concept of “rule by the people” is incompatible with “rule by some of the people.”

And casting periodic ballots for aristocrats competing in a popularity contest can, in no way, be said to constitute *rule* by the community of ballot casters, regardless of how expansive the franchise is.

@HeavenlyPossum

@ahltorp said it exactly.

Wide franchise and social equality are good things, and we should want them. But they're not synonyms with democracy, except in US propaganda.

The main thrust of your argument, that the US has been compromised since economic dependence slavery, is correct. All of the US's racial ills flow from that wound, and its economic disparity is closely related.

That's not the consitution, it's the country (also see Britain and Europe & colonialism)

@ahltorp @BoysenberryCider

Nope, the US constitution was explicitly and specifically structured in ways to make the state unresponsive to the public. Life tenures for judges, a bicameral legislature and long terms in office for senators, the electoral college, a strong executive with veto powers—these were all *explicitly* anti-democratic.

And that is *precisely and explicitly* how these elites framed their goals in their discourse. Early US elites were disgusted by and terrified of the public in general and democracy.

@HeavenlyPossum @ahltorp

Those are not unique to the US, they stem from Montesquieu, and are designed to prevent capture of Government by any one arm. The legislature is supposed to be most responsive to the populace, and the judiciary the least (with its governmental powers limited to oversight). For example, you mentioned lifetime tenure for judges - to me, the US's practice of electing judges is absolute insanity and is just begging for a non-partisan office to become partisan.

@ahltorp @BoysenberryCider

The funniest thing about this conversation is that early elites wrote down their intent to design a system that was anti-democratic, in the sense of preventing the public from governing itself, in explicit terms, and all I am doing is conveying what they honestly and openly confessed to.

I never suggested that hostility to democracy was somehow unique to the US. You’re trying really hard to divine what I’m *really* trying to say when I’m being quite open and precise here.

@HeavenlyPossum @ahltorp Something that might help you make some sense of this, - check out some books on government written by non-US authors.

I'd especially recommend anything that covers the Separation of Powers.

It might make sense of what I'm going on about. Sometimes US sources have a bit of a 'the alphabet was used to write the declaration of independence, so what were the founders thinking when they q look like a backwards p? Let's find out' vibe.