Patrick DownI should never have discovered Dragonsweeper.
Isaac Ji Kuo@patrickd I have only read a brief description of Dragonsweeper and I'm already intrigued.
@isaackuo It's addictive. It's got that "I almost had it. Let me try just one more time." thing going.
John Hattan
@johnhattan @isaackuo I've never really played it. At first pass it looks like a similar principal. Seems like Dragonsweeper has a little more subtilty and polish.
@johnhattan @patrickd I didn't really understand what was going on in Mamono Sweeper.
But I sort of got the hang of Dragonsweeper right away. The logic thinking is close enough to Minesweeper to "get" it pretty quickly. Especially the 100 point mines, because that reverts to classic Minesweeper.
I've only played it a few times so far. It seemed kinda impossible but in the last game I got lucky and hit some sort of scroll that revealed the locations of the 1 point rats.
@johnhattan @patrickd After knowing the location of the 1 point rats, that really made things a lot more doable. I did win, but not by enough of a margin that I could have cleared the board.
I with it had some more explanation. Like, there are these little friendly gnomes that disappear when you find them. I have no idea what they do.
@isaackuo @johnhattan Yeah, there are a few other tricks. Some creatures facing will tell where others are and there are a few others like the rats that reveal all the locations of other types of creatures.
@isaackuo @johnhattan I think you are supposed to find this out by playing but you can also just search it.
@patrickd @johnhattan Okay, I don't like those sorts of game design things. I prefer something that doesn't require creature facing and such.
I'll just have to build my own theme park.
@patrickd @johnhattan I played some more times and I think I've got the hang of it. I accidentally clicked on the red slash through mine icon thing, and found out that it blew up all the mines and turned them into experience points. That helps clear the board a lot!
I haven't quite cleared the board entirely ... had one 7 left over I didn't clear. But I was a bit sloppy. I know I can clear it.
@patrickd @johnhattan Ah, well I did clear the board - or so I thought. I cleared it of monsters, but I didn't realize the walls could be broken.
I ended up with one wall left over, so one point shy of actually clearing the board. I don't know if I feel like playing all the way to a 100% score.
It was very fun, though! Thanks so much for the heads up!
@patrickd @johnhattan If I make my own clone, the biggest game design change I'd make is to have XP overflow spill away rather than accumulate indefinitely. So, you have to both manage not going below 0HP and also not go over max XP.
Also, health would be "food" items with variable amounts. As with XP, any HP overflow would spill away. Health potion would give max HP.
Hmm ...
@isaackuo @johnhattan I was thinking about making a more arcade version where opening a cell releases guys you have to fight.
@patrickd @johnhattan That would definitely change the feel of the game!
One thing I've pondered is playing the game to get minimum score, rather than maximum score. I see that maximum score is already pretty difficult, but minimum score would be a lot tougher ... maybe practically impossible.
Either way, it's too difficult for me to have fun playing. so ... oh well.
@patrickd @johnhattan For my own game design thoughts ... I'm thinking something more like a classic roguelike. Classic roguelikes have maps which are sparsely populated, so for the easier earlier levels you don't have to do much deductive thought.
As you go deeper, though, the maps get more densely populated. So, it doesn't start you off on the deep end. It's got a gradual learning curve. It's more of a casual gaming experience.
@isaackuo @johnhattan Yeah, I think games like this initially catch me through frustration. I should be able to get to the goal but stupid math mistakes or unlucky layout keeps me from it. I eventually get it right and I don't feel much desire to play after that. Moreover I'm not sure I had "fun."
The type of puzzle games I like the most let you noodle your way to a solution without irreversible consequences. I find these generally more relaxing.
@patrickd @johnhattan Yeah, like Windows Minesweeper, Dragonsweeper is unforgiving of stupid math mistakes. Although it's much less likely to produce an unlucky layout.
I think it would be more fun with an option for a few lives. You get to at least see how you would have done if you hadn't made that math mistake, even if it's not a true "perfect" run.
Also, the mental math is annoying and not fun. Thus, my roguelite idea of starting off with sparsely populated floors.
And also ...
@patrickd Instead of multiple lives, my roguelite-sweeper idea would be party based.
So, you have multiple characters and you click on a character to switch. That way, each one has its own HP and XP ... you have a lot more flexibility to ensure you can prevent HP underflow/overflow and XP overflow.
@patrickd @johnhattan BTW, I was wrong about getting maximum score being pretty difficult. It's difficult to get maximum score AND maximum ending health, but if you just want the max score stamp ... pretty doable.
Lovers survive is the easiest stamp and fun.
Egg requires figuring out where eggs could be.
Rat peace depends on luck finding rat king early enough.
And I still don't know what the gnomes do.
@patrickd @johnhattan It occurs to me that you could make a Star Raiders or classic Star Trek type game, replacing LONG RANGE SCAN with a minesweeper type count of adjacent Klingons.
So, you want to take on smaller groups of raiders so you can earn credits to upgrade your ship ...
@johnhattan @isaackuo Love those wire frame graphics.
@johnhattan @patrickd I randomly ran across Varloc before, but I didn't really think of it as an Archon clone due to the unique first person wireframe fighting game thing.
I want to say the Apple ][ had a first person wireframe fighting game, but maybe not. Either way, Varloc is a very rare example of something on the CoCo that wasn't on other systems (or barely on other systems).
@johnhattan @patrickd It's an interesting exception to the rule of the CoCo being left out in the cold when it comes to official ports. Small potential customer base ... 6809 CPU instead of 6502 or Z80 ... so most software houses just ignored it.
But as a result, the CoCo had an unusually high number of knock-off clones, sometimes with unusual variations compared to what you saw on other systems.
@johnhattan @patrickd Thanks for the explanation! Yeah, that's a very different sort of feel. I feel like it's a bit more similar in spirit to original minesweeper.
@johnhattan @patrickd Hey, I just noticed Mamono Sweeper is called out in the credits of Dragonsweeper.
On the second page of the purple guide book, it has the line:
"INSPIRADO EN MAMONO SWEEPER"