Phil Gyford

If I was going to teach a backend web framework (like Django, Rails, etc) my (unequally sized) lessons would be:

1. The request-response process
2. HTML
3. Basic CSS
4. Basic client side JavaScript (optional)
5. The backend language (Python, Ruby, etc)
6. The framework itself

The number of people learning Django (or whatever) and having zero understanding of HTML is amazing.

Dec 16, 2024 at 11:02amIvory for Mac
Show threadEd FreyfogleDec 16, 2024
@philgyford this is so painfully true
Show threadMatt RoundDec 16, 2024
@philgyford Ancient tradition dictates that server-side devs must turn their noses up at lowly HTML/CSS while doing it really badly themselves
Show threadPhil GyfordDec 16, 2024
@mattround It is both too simple to be concerned with and yet somehow too difficult to do correctly!
Show threadnatnightDec 16, 2024

@philgyford @mattround Writing dynamic HTML in a templating language with layouts and helpers is very different from writing it yourself. That doesn't excuse not putting in the reps to learn it (and you can of course save yourself So. Much. Work. by learning to write HTML properly), but it's understandable that the prerequisite gets short shrift.

Reminds me a bit of conversations that used to happen around learning assembly (which I say as someone who can't do assembly 😅).

Show threadOlivier M.Dec 16, 2024
@philgyford
I'd add (5.b) âž¡ SQL 101
Show threadPhil GyfordDec 16, 2024
@aspyrine Oh, good point! (See how much I rely on the ORM now that I forget SQL even exists. Bad me.)
Show threadLsamuelson57Dec 16, 2024

@philgyford I found that an understanding of DOM and AJAX techniques was critical to building good dynamic "HTML/HTTP"...

Are those concepts too low-level? Are platforms (Django, etc.) A better way to start?

Show threadPhil GyfordDec 16, 2024
@Lsamuelson57 I probably wouldn’t look at AJAX etc until they’d done everything else
Show threadLeo TsementzisDec 16, 2024
@philgyford To be honest, I’m not surprised at all, given that for the past five years or so, most Django (or Rails) newcomers focussed almost entirely on building a backend system that exposes an API to a React front end and didn’t touch the templating system at all.
Show threadPhil GyfordDec 16, 2024
@leotsem Yup, there’s the problem.
Show threadGilberto FicaraDec 16, 2024
@philgyford as an ops person I'm always surprised by how many devs don't have the faintest clue about the request-response process.