Track_ShovelLooking for answers
tigeruppercutThe people saying “Violence isn’t the answer” are the people who don’t want to see anything change
Allow me an argument by Doctor Who: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9o4BEziI
You can use violence, but when does it end, and what makes you think you are going to end up better off?
The Doctor's Speech | The Zygon Inversion | Doctor Who
You can use words, but when does it end, and what makes you think you are going to end up better off?
Violence ends when non-violent reforms are able to succeed. The real value of violence is that it makes the non-violent option palatable to the political center.
The problem here is that the war already started but just one side is really fighting it.
I would be in favour of not starting it too, but it’s too late now.
The doctor was against violence as a principle but he famously uses tons of violence (I guess in the form of trickery) but as a last resort.
House: “fear me, I’ve killed hundreds of time lords”
The Doctor: “fear me, I’ve killed all of them”
skillissuerPacifism is only good for aggressors and cowards
Non-violence != Pacifism
A person can be an advocate for non-violence and not be a pacifist. No need to conflate the two, particularly when people have so much hate and vitriol for any perceived pacifism.
Arguably, accepting the necessity of occasional violent protest is more reasonable than giving up pacifism.
A notable uptick in web queries for “guillotine for sale” is not a DDoS.
just a good ol fashioned foreshadowin’
Peaceful protests were meant to be a compromise to warn that something worse was coming. Black Panthers. Weather Underground. IRA and Sinn Fein.
Effective peaceful movements had potentially violent components. The more radical elements disappeared and peaceful protests became useless.
Unions were a compromise. Before unions, you’d drag the factory owner into his front lawn and exact justice.
Random_Character_AI think this guy hit the nail in the head.
Peaceful protest only works if politicians and financial elite has fear and/or respect towards the commond man/woman. Too much elitisms strips away the respect, too many years of peaceful protests takes away the fear. Sometimes ivory towers need to come down, but violence has a tendency to spread and spiral out of control. It’s a balance trick.
Yea only under the threat of violence has power ever changed hands.
Also: we’ve got where we are under threat of violence. Charlottesville and Jan 6 in the USA, the recent gammon riots in the UK, everything Putin does, etc, etc. The Authoritarians have weaponised both peace and violence against us.
Nelson Mandela was released on the terms that he would preach peaceful protest, as the movement he had formerly been leading was a serious threat to the South African Government.
Reverend Martin Luther King Jr was a proponent of peaceful protest, though it could be argued he was losing faith in it near the end when he was assassinated. right after his death, the Holy Week Uprisings occurred, which saw immediate action from the federal government to pass the Civil Rights Act.
At the same time, acts of violence lie on a spectrum, and I think there is a fair amount of conversation to be had about what degree of violence and what type of violence are most effective.
Yeah, Mandela failed, there is nothing like a peaceful protest in SA.
skulblakaMartin Luther King Jr was able to succeed with his peaceful protests because the threat of Malcolm X was looming directly over his shoulder. One requires the other. Either of them alone would not have made nearly the progress they did.
Ghandi was partly successful because of the British governments violence towards thier peaceful protests.
I would say that both Malcolm X and MLK ultimately failed at their end goals, personally.
My bigger point was that the holy week uprising was able to progress things forward more in one week than either movement could do in the many years they were active. To be fair, I do not think the level of vigour and organization shown in the holy week uprising could have happened without the many liberation groups’ prior work.
Ultimately, the use of violence is complex and how to effectively use it is just as complex. We should be discussing how to use all tactics and methods available, and not view violence as the only important component.
MLK was only successful because Malcom X was the alternative, and the powers that be knew it.
and the Black Panthers
There’s a lot of evidence that says that non-violent resistance is more often more effective than violent-based resistance.
Can’t grab the source info link at the moment, but this video talks about it.
IS Violence the Answer?
non-violent resistance is more often effective
It’s only ever effective when a credible violent alternative is present.
No oppressed person in history has ever gotten their rights by appealing to the better nature of their oppressor.
Civil rights weren’t won when black people asked politely and just moved everyone’s heats at how unjustly they were being treated, when MLK died, he had a 75% disapproval rating, but through repeated demonstrations of power and showing what would happen if their demands weren’t met.
Essay: Why Martin Luther King Had a 75 Percent Disapproval Rating in the Year of His Death | History Department
"Why Martin Luther King Had a 75 Percent Disapproval Rating in the Year of His Death. His Crusade to Confront Economic Injustice and the Vietnam War Angered Whites, While Younger Black Activists Had Lost Patience With His Nonviolent Tactics." By James C. Cobb | April 4, 2018
You’re jumping the gun and assuming a lot.
I mean, you literally said:
the rest of the information and studies that accompany it,
(Emphasis mine.)
I only saw only one study referenced, which seems to be a book, not an academic paper.
Appreciate the data sources though. I’ll take a look.
The book itself is based on multiple studies. Here is the first part of the second paragraph for the book’s description:
Combining statistical analysis with case studies of specific countries and territories […]
The website has some other studies referenced and such. It kinda seems that you barely opened either of the links.
I couldn’t get past the 4th example of “non-violence” without laughing at how wildly revisionist they are. While each of these had non-violent components, none of them would have succeeded without violence. The housing rights act wasn’t passed until literally every city was on fire.
Here’s a great book detailing the experiences that lead civil rights leaders to understand as much..
The British gave up their occupation of India after a decades-long nonviolent struggle by the Indian population led by Mohandas Gandhi. The Danes, Norwegians and other peoples in Europe used civil resistance against Nazi invasion during World War II, raising the costs to Germany of its occupation of these nations, helping to strengthen the spirit and cohesion of their people, and saving the lives of thousands of Jews in Berlin to Copenhagen to Paris and elsewhere. Labor movements around the world have consistently used tactics of civil resistance to win concessions for workers throughout the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. African Americans used civil resistance in their struggle to dissolve segregation in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s.
I couldn’t get past the 4th example of “non-violence” without laughing at how wildly revisionist they are. While each of these had non-violent components, none of them would have succeeded without violence.
I believe the violent aspects of these resistances are considered and included in the overall analysis in the book I linked.
I think you may be jumping to conclusions when you see something that doesn’t immediately fall into your own views. Those examples are clearly a simplified and truncated set to quickly get the point across for the purpose of an “About Us” page while there is lots of in-depth information available throughout the site.
If you have qualms with their findings or data, you’d be better off taking it up with them instead of me. I don’t purport to be an expert on this subject. I am only relaying that there is plenty of credible research, data, and analysis that shows that non-violent resistance is effective.
Civil resistance against Nazi invasion
I’m sure the 2.7 million tonnes of bombs being dropped on them didn’t exactly tip that scale much…
Wait, are you using multiple accounts to support your argument? The OP comment is under a different username but you just responded to that person as if you made that initial content presenting the data.
And reminder that Lemmy shows edit history.
Are you talking about enkers’s comment? I saw their response, which was clearly meant for me and responded. Then they deleted that comment and moved it to where they intended to put it, so I did the same.
No, the op consent presenting the data. The username just changed to match yours.
I’m very confused about what you’re claiming. Are you saying I somehow edited a comment’s user?
Regardless, I’m not using multiple accounts to… argue with myself?
If a comment author changed username, I would be dubious of the platform you’re using to view this thread. Could be an issue with an app you’re using.
Yeah, sorry 'bout that; that was my bad. I didn’t mention it since you figured out my intent. Looks like me moving my comment might have led to some confused bystanders, though.
1900-2006? This past century has literally been humanity’s most transformative ever, and this chart is just glomming all the data together. We’d need to see trends of how these have changed over time to get a realistic picture.
Well, when you only look at that one image alone and not any of the rest of the information and studies that accompany it, I can see why you’d make that hasty judgement.
Maybe go read more of the vast amounts of information available on it: www.nonviolent-conflict.org/…/civil-resistance/
That’s the exact same link I just read. There was a link to a $27 book titled “award-winning research”. I wasn’t able to find any further data sources beyond the provided anecdotes. Did I miss something?
“anecdotes”? Yes, you have clearly missed a lot. There’s lots available and easy to find. I don’t think you need me to hold your hand.
Here’s a full dataset if you want: dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=…
I mean, you literally said:
the rest of the information and studies that accompany it,
(Emphasis mine.)
I only saw only one study referenced, which seems to be a book, not an academic paper.
In any case, I appreciate the data sources. I’ll take a look.
The book itself is based on multiple studies. Here is the first part of the second paragraph for the book’s description:
Combining statistical analysis with case studies of specific countries and territories […]
The website has some other studies referenced and such. It kinda seems that you barely opened either of the links.
Ok, well I don’t have the book, or links to the studies it’s based on, so that’s not particularly helpful.
I throughly scanned the page for data sources and scholarly papers, and also read some of the major concepts and provided anecdotes. I did not see any further studies or data linked in either of the pages you linked to yourself, but if I did miss something, please feel free to point it out.
Once again, thank you for providing the source data you already did. It’s a fairly complicated dataset, so it’ll take some effort to grok.
Here’s the methodologies of the book
Thanks! That’s a big help.
Random, generalizing comment:
The people saying “Violence isn’t the answer” are the people who don’t want to see anything change
50 upvotes. Comment actually based on real data that happens to show that the original premise is actually wrong: 0 upvotes. Why is Lemmy exactly like Reddit? I thought people coming here were a bit more aware of ideologies etc.
This whole UHC/Luigi thing has really outlined how dangerously toxic Lemmy is. I mean “dangerous” very literally, too. It should not incite the amount of vitriol I have received because I dared to say “I don’t like killing”.
You got flak - rightfully - because you critiziced the claims adjustment while having no sympathy for the victims of legalized mass murder by denial of claims.
So don’t play the victim here.
Never did such a thing. Lying should not be necessary to prove a point.
Not just Lemmy, dude. Go out into the world and you’ll hear the same sentiment straight from human mouths.
In this case, the “dangerously toxic” thing going on here is the US healthcare system. It’s broken and everyone knows it. Apparently, no amount of complaining, begging, and letters to Congress are going to fix it so, here we are. It speaks volumes to me that even after the fucked up election this year, dems AND pubs are backing this HERO.
You might not like it but we seem to be in a spot where the talking has failed so the killing (or at least the threat of it) must begin.
Apparently, no amount of complaining, begging, and letters to Congress are going to fix it so, here we are.
There are other actions available before advocating for killing. Let’s focus on those first, eh?
What’s your best idea?
And yet, Brian Robert Thompson will never kill again.
Lemmy is just slower Reddit. Plenty of ideologues here.
Everyone’s an idealogue. Don’t kid yourself.
There is a massive difference between someone who actively fights against their biases and doesn’t let them dictate the conclusions they reach, and is always open to changing those conclusions and their way of thinking as new information comes to their attention, and someone who clings to those biases, and happily ignores anything that may challenge them.
I only define the latter category as “ideologues”. Sure, technically everyone who is sapient has an ideology, but as the definition says:
an adherent of an ideology, especially one who is uncompromising and dogmatic.
I have a feeling you know very well that’s the kind of person I was talking about. And no, not everyone is like that. On Reddit I was once called a “commie” and a “Nazi” on the same day by different people in different subs, lol, both in reaction to being told a fact that contradicted a bias of theirs. Those are the kind of people I’m talking about.
The real data you like is arguing the Nazis were more effectively defeated through non violence.
A few questions for the study:
What’s the data source? If they’re just doing news reports and traditional history that can hide a lot of failed non-violent protests. A non violent protest, especially one against the medias interests, is way less likely to show up in the historical record then a violent insurrection. Only the successful movements like the civil rights movement will get mentioned on the non-violent side whereas every insurrection or riot, successful or not, is captured in the historical record.
What’s the breakdown by method? It seems they’re including strikes in this which has a very high success rate and high occurrence, so much so it could drown out all the failed protests.
The book’s methodologies: www.ericachenoweth.com/…/WCRW-Appendix.pdf
The data set:
dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=…
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