PugJesusHostage users vs. Hostage killers, what a wonderful scenario the Middle East has gotten itself into this time.
flamingo_pinyataI think it’s finally time to restore the Mandate of Palestine:
- Israelis get to live there but not their own special state
- Palestinians get to live there but not their own special state
- Everybody gets to hate the British, as is tradition
- Brits finally get a colony back, it’ll lift their mood after the brexit disaster
ZozanoBut what about muh prophecy?
Unironically would be a better option if it was on the table.
That’s how bad this has gotten, guys. I’m pro-British Empire vis-a-vis the Middle East.
One-state solution time. Bring back the Roman Empire.
Can you imagine the Italians running everything? Sure there’d be plenty of good pasta and wine worldwide but I doubt we’d stay productive with three-hour wine lubricated lunch breaks every day
I say the USA needs to have a proper go at an empire. People could serve in the legion (navy) for citizenship and everything
I say the USA needs to have a proper go at an empire.
Please no. As Teddy Roosevelt once noted, we lack the interest in it. Let’s just not.
Hard to argue we don’t have the appetite after spending our first 150 years conquering territory roughly double the size of the Roman Empire at its peak
That was more ethnic cleansing than traditional imperialism. Not that I disagree that describing it as imperialism is valid, but it’s not what TR was talking about. The point was that Americans lack serious interest in foreign affairs or a desire for distant prestige projects. Our every overseas acquisition, temporary or permanent, has been marked by a noted uncertainty of what to actually do with any of it. Not that that makes any of the folk getting crushed happier, but it does reflect a lack of interest in the whole topic.
Perhaps we just need to generate a little excitement.
Gladiators worked nicely for the Romans, maybe we could generate similar hype with a reality show to choose the governor of each new province. I think “Love Island, Argentinian Governor Edition” would be a real hit.
Stop life, I’d like to get off, please
NOT_RICKMale Parta Male Dilabuntur
What are you talking about? The beepers and radios were bought by Hezbollah, and went to Hezbollah members. They were surgical strikes.
Meanwhile, Lebanon is still firing rockets at Israel. The only reason that not more Israeli civilians are dead is because of the Iron Dome
Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk
Fuck Isreal.
So booby trapping military equipment is bad because civilians might get caught in it, but firing rockets at civilians is a-ok?
Only SOME Israelis and disgusting pigfucking Zionists are celebrating airstrikes on civilians.
What Israelis are celebrating airstrikes on Israel?
Wtf?
You must live in Israel, where the media censors all the other, outgoing airstrikes. Which are much greater in quantity and effect.
Pro tip: Israel bombs more civilians than Hamas.
That’s called misinformation
Would you like to give us a ballpark estimate of the number of civilians bombed by Israel and Hamas recently?
Israel has the iron dome, it’s not for lack of trying.
A man shoots at his wife and misses. Should that man go to jail?
Israel has the iron dome, it’s not for lack of trying.
Iron Dome has intercepted some 5000 rockets in the past decade. With each of those 5000 rockets assumed to be a civilian casualty (which, considering the casualty rates of Hamas rocket attacks per-rocket, you will agree is VERY generous, I’m sure), would you like to give us a ballpark estimate for the civilian deaths caused by Israel and Hamas?
A rocket can kill way more than one person.
Are you saying that if a man shoots at his wife and misses, he should get off scot free?
A rocket can kill way more than one person.
Can. On average a rocket made by Hamas kills one person per 100 rockets fired. They’re not exactly cutting-edge weapons.
Are you saying that if a man shoots at his wife and misses, he should get off scot free?
No, I’m saying of the man who shot one person, and the man who shot ten people in the same time frame, one is much more urgent to address. Furthermore, this whole thing came up because you claimed that Israel bombing more civilians than Hamas was ‘misinformation’.
tl;dr; 3000 Black Rockets of Hamas have not caused the obliteration of 2% of the Israeli population yet.
If a man shoots at his wife and misses, they should drop a 1000 pound bomb on his house with him and his wife and kids inside, his neighbors’ houses blown up as well, his office building hit with napalm, his cousins detained for questioning, and his accountant shot. Agreed?
No, just him. Like how Israel sabotaged military equipment. And unlike how Hamas and Hezbollah target civilians.
Now that we’ve established that, do you have any comment on the number of children killed in Gaza? The reported number is somewhere around 17,000, but it’s hard to know for certain because all of the hospitals have been bombed. We do know that more than 2,000 children under age 2 are dead. Any comment on the number of journalists killed (100+)? Any comment on the number of aid workers killed, especially when in nearly every case they were directly coordinating with the IDF? Any comment on the use of white phosphorus in densely packed urban areas? And comment on dropping JDAMs in a refugee camp to eliminate a single hamas leader? And then dropping another JDAM on the same refugee camp during rescue efforts?
Those numbers came from Gaza officials, otherwise known as Hamas. Who knows how many are actually dead, who killed them, and what happened? Hell, we already saw direct proof that Hamas will kill their own civilians when they fired a rocket at their own hospital.
There’s an extreme amount of propaganda surrounding the war, and there’s no good figures on it.
Those deaths are listed BY NAME AND ID NUMBER. If you want to contest them, you’ll need evidence.
And if you want to play that game, the IDF shot 3 Israeli hostages.
Want to comment on all the other atrocities, or is that all propaganda too?
Why on earth would the IDF kill Israeli hostages? Does that make sense to you?
…wikipedia.org/…/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_H…
Actually yes. It makes sense if you consider their purpose in Gaza is genocide. They thought they were innocent Palestinians, not innocent Israelis.
skillissuerboth in absolute terms and especially compared to continuing airstrikes, some with ai-cooked target list and including actual warcrime tactics, pagers were basically spotless in terms of targeting. the more likely illegal part was in booby-trapping pagers in the first place. westpoint lawyer take on the situation lieber.westpoint.edu/exploding-pagers-law/
Yeah, like, fuck Israel, I’m no ally of Israel, but the pager thing is dubious-but-overblown. I could see it being a war crime, but I could also understand if it was determined a legitimate ruse-of-war by a legitimately unbiased international court.
The fact that they immediately escalated to shelling residential areas afterwards? A bit more damning.
pagers thing is probably illegal pending extra details but it’s not the worst thing that happenes there. not like this case will see hague ever so it’s probably a bit moot on that ground
it’s middle east, there are no innocent orgs, except civilians, and no one has actual incentive to limit civilian casualties. i’d just wish that both likud and hamas lose because neither is compatible with remotely sane stable politics in region
Yup. I’d say it was legit, given that airstrikes on military targets that might have visiting civilians are considered legit. Like, at the very least that seems like a court case worth fighting, although IANAL.
Literally everything else I can think of has been messed up.
“… basically spotless in terms of targeting” Ahh yes, hundreds of innocents dying is, “spotless”…
Tell me you don’t care about others’ lives AT ALL without telling me you do not care…
You are worse than a dumb animal if you think ANYTHING was spotless about yet another Israel war crime.
i’ll make it shorter for you if you don’t have attention span for a paragraph of text:
pagers are probably a war crime, but it’s relatively minor compared to airstrikes that happened since (and before)
Air strikes that were also often war crimes.
Match!!bunch a civilians and children were killed by the pager attacks
If they were surgical then why did innocent civilians and children get hurt? What kind of surgeons are you used and what on earth is their level of success?
Meanwhile, Lebanon is still firing rockets at Israel. The only reason that not more Israeli civilians are dead is because of the Iron Dome
Why is Israel getting attacked by Hezbollah? (It’s not Lebanon attacking Israel.)
I’d say it was closer to a surgeon than to most recent Isreali actions, but you’re right, “surgical” is always a propaganda term in military contexts. There is no clean war, only relatively less dirty.
Saying it’s close to a surgeon compared to the rest of Israel’s actions is like saying a sawed-off shotgun is slightly more accurate because you added a tiny barrel to decrease it’s spread. It’s common knowledge this was an act of terror that violated international law and was intended to escalate the conflict to help keep Bibi and his cronies in power while also grabbing more land from Palestine and Lebanon. Calling it “surgical” is not just propaganda. It’s an outright lie and intended to misdirect from what’s actually happening.
It’s common knowledge this was an act of terror
I really don’t think so. That’s just some people’s opinion. Hell, even “act of terror” is poorly-defined, as used.
and was intended to escalate the conflict to help keep Bibi and his cronies in power
That’s valid, though. There’s nothing just about the war, valid method in this one instance or no.
It really is an act of terror. This isn’t subjective. If you attack a population and spread terror among them than it’s an act of terror.
“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.
So when the police arrest someone for stealing in order to deter other potential thieves, that’s an act of terror? I kinda thought you might go there, but it’s a uselessly vague dictionary definition. In practice it’s even more political than “surgical strike”.
Collective punishment is a war crime, but this was directed at personnel of a military adversary, not Lebanese people in general. These UN experts seem to think it was indiscriminate, and they’re way more qualified than me, but at the same time an airstrike on a specifically military target is generally considered okay, and has way higher potential for collateral damage.
Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives
This one’s new to me. Yep, that fits to a tee. Never mind, it was illegal.
This one’s new to me. Yep, that fits to a tee. Never mind, it was illegal.
This is not quite as cut-and-dry. The prohibition is for civilian objects. The argument can be made that Israel rigging the communication devices of Hezbollah operatives specifically is not invalid just because communication devices are dual-use objects.
But regardless. It’s shitty, Israel’s motives are shitty, and all most of us half a world away can do is meme to keep our sanity.
Or lose it. Whatever.
Do you know which treaty that was exactly? I also wonder if it was written at a time when opaque military supply chains and detonation by network weren’t around. A walkie-talkie that blows up on use and is sold openly would indeed be indiscriminate as hell.
A link to the text that currently works, Wikipedia has some rust going on.
It’s Article 6 section 1 subsection “a” that’s relevant here. Interestingly, it’s worded specifically about self-detonating objects, as opposed to remote controlled ones, which other parts of the text do include. Maybe there’s been updates of some kind to this, though; I defer to the actual lawyers.
So when the police arrest someone for stealing in order to deter other potential thieves, that’s an act of terror?
Police arrest and imprison a thief because they are a thief and have done a crime. Deterrence is not the main intent and just a byproduct. This was an intentional escalation of an already volatile situation to promote fear in the Lebanese population and provoke a response from Hezbollah. These 2 situations are in no way related.
Collective punishment is a war crime, but this was directed at personnel of a military adversary, not Lebanese people in general.
Unless the pagers had some kind of biometrics capability capable of verifying that the person beside the pager was a Hezbollah member and no one else was around then it was not “directed at personnel of a military adversary”. You don’t play a shooter and say spray-and-pray is an effective strategy because over 80% of the bullets hit the target.
These UN experts seem to think it was indiscriminate, and they’re way more qualified than me
If experts are saying something then maybe you should listen?
but at the same time an airstrike on a specifically military target is generally considered okay, and has way higher potential for collateral damage.
An airstrike with guided missiles on some of the most advanced fighter jets in history has more potential for collateral damage than a bunch of improvised IED’s spread throughout a population? Really?
Deterrence is not the main intent
Any number of politicians, police officers and domestic legal experts openly disagree with you. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “deter criminals” many times before.
Abstract moral punishment and rehabilitation are also in the mix, but deterrence is listed first as often as not.
You don’t play a shooter and say spray-and-pray is an effective strategy because over 80% of the bullets hit the target.
Spraying bullets vaguely towards the enemy is not unusual at all in infantry operations. Quite often they’re concealed or covered, and you either want to keep them that way or kill them before they can kill you, regardless. In fact, the automatic setting on an ordinary assault rifle can’t do anything else.
Also, airstrikes are not biometric, but that’s the next bit.
An airstrike with guided missiles on some of the most advanced fighter jets in history has more potential for collateral damage than a bunch of improvised IED’s spread throughout a population? Really?
Yes. High-tech or not it’s a big boom and you only have you’re intelligence guy’s best guess about who’s inside of or next to the military position. It sounds like you might have fallen for some “surgical strike” type rhetoric here yourself.
Any number of politicians, police officers and domestic legal experts openly disagree with you. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “deter criminals” many times before.
That point is used for political theatre. How often do you see the conviction of a crime justified in the name of deterrence of future crimes in a courtroom?
Spraying bullets vaguely towards the enemy is not unusual at all in infantry operations. Quite often they’re concealed or covered, and you either want to keep them that way or kill them before they can kill you, regardless. In fact, the automatic setting on an ordinary assault rifle can’t do anything else.
The point I’m trying make here is that Israel had no actual way of verifying they were hitting Hezbollah members. They just intercepted a shipment of pagers going to Lebanon that they know Hezbollah members used and put in explosives. What happened if you’re just a regular guy trying to buy one of those pagers? How did Israel know that actual Hezbollah members were in possession of pagers when they hit the button to blow them up? The short answer is they didn’t know the answer to either of those questions. That’s why there were innocent casualties. Hence, calling it an act of terror.
Yes. High-tech or not it’s a big boom and you only have you’re intelligence guy’s best guess about who’s inside of or next to the military position. It sounds like you might have fallen for some “surgical strike” type rhetoric here yourself.
I genuinely don’t know how to explain to you that exploding a bunch of pagers with no knowledge of where they are or who has them at any given time has more potential for collateral damage than an airstrike using advanced weaponry on a military target. Just because Israel doesn’t care about civilian casualties and likes to carpet bomb entire neighborhoods doesn’t make your point valid.
How often do you see the conviction of a crime justified in the name of deterrence of future crimes in a courtroom?
In a courtroom, they don’t justify laws at all, except maybe relative to other, more foundational laws. They just interpret them.
Theater implies it’s not very much meant earnestly, by politicians and criminologists alike. And honestly I myself agree with that kind of deterrence, there should be rules that people are mortally afraid to break; anything else is a power vacuum and won’t last.
hey just intercepted a shipment of pagers going to Lebanon that they know Hezbollah members used and put in explosives. What happened if you’re just a regular guy trying to buy one of those pagers?
It’s actually known now that their own shell company sold directly to Hezbollah. It’s not like this was a random shipment to Lebanon, there was no risk of that. The civilian casualties were a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I genuinely don’t know how to explain to you that exploding a bunch of pagers with no knowledge of where they are or who has them at any given time has more potential for collateral damage than an airstrike using advanced weaponry on a military target.
I genuinely thing that’s empirically wrong. What you call “advanced weaponry” still uses the same explosives from WWII, but in even greater quantities. The 21st century electronics mean it will hit a specific building instead of “London”, but it’s still 2000 pounds of RDX or whatever.
I feel like you and I could go back and forth on this discussion for a very long time. I do disagree with your logic, but I also do see where you’re coming from(kinda). Hopefully you don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t see too much benefit in arguing semantics over a word choice of a problem we both agree exists. I think it’s best if we simply agree to disagree and go on with our days.
NP, have an unironically nice day.
They have since been bombing the shit out of residential areas which are significantly less surgical…
What are you talking about? The beepers and radios were bought by Hezbollah, and went to Hezbollah members. They were surgical strikes.
This may be news to you, but Israel has been executing a flurry of airstrikes and artillery shelling on Lebanon since.
MaggiWuerzeSurgical my ass. Blowing explosives you planted on people way out of sight ANF without any situational awareness is anything but precise
I mean it was certainly precise as in each device was carried by their respective owner and therefore intended target.
Blowing it up while the guy was standing in line in a grocery store shows how much civilian casualties have been considered though.
I mean it was certainly precise as in each device was carried by their respective owner and therefore intended target.
There was no way to know that for Israel though, they just assumed