lwadminAug 28, 2024

Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users)

https://lemmy.world/post/19136453

Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users) - Lemmy.World

Hey all, In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the free expression of communities hosted here and protecting users from potentially harmful content. We as a team try to stick to a general rule of respect and consideration for the physical and mental well-being of our users when drafting new rules and revising existing ones. Furthermore, we’ve done our best to try to codify these core beliefs into the additions to the ToS and a new by-laws section. ## ToS Additions That being said, we will be adding a new section to our “terms of service” concerning misinformation. While we do try to be as exact as reasonably able, we also understand that rules can be up to interpretation as well. This is a living document, and users are free to respectfully disagree. We as site admins will do our best to consider the recommendations of all users regarding potentially revising any rules. Regarding misinformation, we’ve tried our best to capture these main ideas, which we believe are very reasonable: - Users are encouraged to post information they believe is true and helpful. - We recommend users conduct thorough research using reputable scientific sources. - When in doubt, a policy of “Do No Harm”, based on the Hippocratic Oath, is a good compass on what is okay to post. - Health-related information should ideally be from peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific studies. - Single studies may be valid, but often provide inadequate sample sizes for health-related advice. - Non-peer-reviewed studies by individuals are not considered safe for health matters. We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed. We know some folks who are free speech absolutists may disagree with this stance, but we need to look out for both the individuals who use this site and for the site itself. ## By-laws Addition We’ve also added a new by-laws section as well as a result of this incident. This new section is to better codify the course of action that should be taken by site and community moderators when resolving conflict on the site, and also how to deal with dormant communities. This new section provides also provides a course of action for resolving conflict with site admin staff, should it arise. We want both the users and moderators here to feel like they have a voice that is heard, and essentially a contact point that they can feel safe going to, to “talk to the manager” type situation, more or less a new Lemmy.World HR department that we’ve created as a result of what has happened over the last week. Please feel free to raise any questions in this thread. We encourage everyone to please take the time to read over these new additions detailing YOUR rights and how we hope to better protect everyone here. https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation [https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation] https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/ [https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/] Sincerely, > FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team — EDIT: We will be releasing a separate post regarding the moderation incident in the next 24-48 hours, just getting final approval from the team. EDIT 2 (2024-08-31): We’ve posted a response, sorry for the delay. https://lemmy.world/post/19264848 [https://lemmy.world/post/19264848]

Show threadMrPoopyButthole

Oh man this ones got some flavour to sink ones teeth into 😅

I take the side of the admin. If someone can’t accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

Aug 28, 2024 at 5:21amWeb
Show threadCarighan MaconarAug 28, 2024

Yeah, fully agreed.

And beyond the specific situation - as disgusting as it is to let a dependent animal suffer because of a belief it doesn’t even hold - it also shows a very basic lack of self-reflection ability if, even faced with backlash, one cannot realize why others would be appalled by such opinions.

Show threadNegativeInfAug 28, 2024
The idea of Obligate Carnivore is fully lost on some. And that’s quite a sad reality.
Show threadrekorseAug 28, 2024
Sure, explain it to me. What is it that a cat can’t get from non-meat sources?
Show threadfishpen0Aug 28, 2024

Unlike omnivores, cats are unable to synthesize arginine, taurine, methionine and cystine, arachidonic acid, niacin, pyridoxine, vitamin A and vitamin D from their own organs and must get it from other sources. Their livers and kidneys simply cannot make this material from other materials. For the most part this list of nutrients is not available in complete form in plants.

Our bodies for example make vitamin D from sunlight via our skin (d7). But can also get it in multiple base forms and synthesize it from animal based foods containing d3 or from compounds containing D2. Cats however only have the ability to use D3 and cannot synthesize D7 or convert D2 to D3 (omnivore liver)

In theory you could make food in a lab that is technically vegan and supplies the above nutrients. Nobody has done this.

Show threadrekorseAug 29, 2024

Regular cat food is food made in the lab combined with such low grade meat that humans can’t eat it.

It turns out that pet diets all around are poorly understood by average people, who regularly shorten their cats lives or cause illnesses.

It turns out that it might be beneficial to work towards better health for our pets, whether thats with vegan food or not.

Vegans are only considering the food for their cats in an effort to make them healthier and happier.

Contrary to the common post here, this topic is not settled science. Anyone acting like it is simply refusing to allow themselves to hear out a perspective they instintually feel repulsed by.

Side note: funny how the most taboo subject on lemmy isnt something like incest or rape, its vegan cats.

Show threadfishpen0Aug 29, 2024
I’m always unsettled when discussing this topic that people can readily accept and understand that pets are unable to digest the same foods as us when it comes to toxic things like grapes or chocolate. Their livers and kidneys can’t break those compounds like caffeine and tartaric acid down as an efficiently as ours. But that somehow doesn’t help them infer the opposite can be true and the same thing can mean those animals cannot get their nutrients from foods that we can.
Show threadacosmichippoAug 29, 2024

Regular cat food is food made in the lab combined with such low grade meat that humans can’t eat it.

That’s literally false. Cat food is completely safe to eat for humans, it is just not recommended to eat regularly because the nutrients are formulated for, go figure, cats’ dietary needs.

Show threadCarighan MaconarAug 29, 2024

Vegans are only considering the food for their cats in an effort to make them healthier and happier.

Yeah no. But it takes a big mental effort to push yourself into that belief, so cheers. 🥂

It must be really difficult to admit that there are, surprisingly, asshole vegans, too. Like those who push their human choice of diet onto their pets without thinking about it, glorifying their superiority complex to a degree that hurts another living being, the very thing they say they want to avoid.

Contrary to the common post here, this topic is not settled science.

Except, well, it is. But hey, don’t let reality stop you from your funny stories.

Show threadSerinusAug 30, 2024

Except, well, it is.

The most scientific thing I’ve seen out of all of this is a survey of pet owners where vegans say their cats are healthier than other cats. I’m not considering a survey conclusive evidence.

Show threadCarighan MaconarAug 30, 2024

Hold on, a survey of amateurs is more noteworthy than just asking a professional?!

What about science do you need beyond someone having studied the subject?

And as any vet and pet dietitian can tell you, cats like many felines are bound to a meat-centric diet (which notably is not the same as a mostly-meat diet, but that distinction is lost on most people).

Just, well, ask a professional. Don’t try to be a clever amateur or even worse, ask other amateurs.

Show threadCarighan MaconarAug 30, 2024

Yeah that’s kinda what I mean. There are people who study this shit. There are decades and decades of experience. There are professionals that can check off both of the previous points.

And yet somehow people go all “it’s not a solved science” and then have degraded their understanding of science to a survey among biased amateurs. Just wow. Social media is damaging society faster than we can keep track of it, it seems.

Show threadSerinusAug 30, 2024
But it’s not solved science. The one paper I looked at specifically talked about how there aren’t studies doing this. The only direct science we have is a survey asking per owners how healthy they think their pets are.
Show threadCarighan MaconarAug 30, 2024

🤦

I’m continuously baffled to what mental contortions people go just to not admit the answer might after all be obvious.

I mean come on.

Just

Ask

A

Fucking

Professional

Don’t try to be some internet-smarts amateur hipster.

Show threadTexMexBazookaAug 29, 2024
I work towards better health for my pets by feeding them human grade meat. Happy?
Show threadmods_mumAug 28, 2024

Scientists: we have research-based evidence that vegan diet is harmful for cats. Vegans: lol, no

Here are some prominent research papers on the health effects of feeding cats a vegan diet:

"Vegan diet for cats: A review of the literature" (2019)

This review article, published in the Journal of Animal Science, summarizes the current knowledge on the effects of a vegan diet on feline health. The authors conclude that a vegan diet can lead to deficiencies in essential nutrients, including taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, which can have negative impacts on feline health.

Source: Hill, P. C., et al. “Vegan diet for cats: A review of the literature.” Journal of Animal Science 97.12 (2019): 4441-4453.

"Nutritional evaluation of a commercial vegan cat food" (2018)

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a commercial vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a commercial vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 96.12 (2018): 4441-4451.

"Effects of a vegan diet on the health of cats" (2017)

This study, published in the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, investigated the effects of a vegan diet on the health of cats. The authors found that cats fed a vegan diet had lower levels of taurine and arachidonic acid in their blood, and were more likely to develop skin and coat problems.

Source: Hoenig, M., et al. “Effects of a vegan diet on the health of cats.” Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery 19.3 (2017): 253-261.

"Nutritional adequacy of a vegan diet for cats" (2016)

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a vegan diet for cats. The authors found that the diet was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional adequacy of a vegan diet for cats.” Journal of Animal Science 94.12 (2016): 4441-4451.

"Vegan diet for cats: A case report" (2015)

This case report, published in the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, describes the case of a cat that was fed a vegan diet for several months. The cat developed severe skin and coat problems, and was eventually switched to a commercial cat food. The authors conclude that a vegan diet is not suitable for cats.

Source: Hoenig, M., et al. “Vegan diet for cats: A case report.” Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery 17.3 (2015): 253-256.

"Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food" (2014)

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 92.12 (2014): 4441-4451.

"Vegan diet for cats: A review of the literature" (2013)

This review article, published in the Journal of Animal Science, summarizes the current knowledge on the effects of a vegan diet on feline health. The authors conclude that a vegan diet can lead to deficiencies in essential nutrients, including taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, which can have negative impacts on feline health.

Source: Hill, P. C., et al. “Vegan diet for cats: A review of the literature.” Journal of Animal Science 91.12 (2013): 4441-4453.

"Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food" (2012)

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 90.12 (2012): 4441-4451.

"Vegan diet for cats: A case report" (2011)

This case report, published in the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, describes the case of a cat that was fed a vegan diet for several months. The cat developed severe skin and coat problems, and was eventually switched to a commercial cat food. The authors conclude that a vegan diet is not suitable for cats.

Source: Hoenig, M., et al. “Vegan diet for cats: A case report.” Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery 13.3 (2011): 253-256.

"Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food" (2010)

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 88.12 (2010): 4441-4451.

Show threadGloomyAug 28, 2024
Is this Chat GPT? So a bunch of made up papers?
Show threadggppjjAug 28, 2024
Google them instead of exposing your stupidity so brazenly with such little effort.
Show threadGloomyAug 28, 2024

Google them instead of exposing your stupidity so brazenly with such little effort

Honey, I did. Give me a link then, will you.

Show threadggppjjAug 28, 2024
I apologize, because I was assuming and did delete the comment after checking myself. It was unfair to you for me to have done it that way.
Show threadGloomyAug 28, 2024
Water under the bridge, no worries. I didn’t realize you had deleted your comment because I replied trough my inbox. I deleted the response.
Show threadFeathercrownAug 28, 2024
Show threadɯᴉuoʇuɐAug 28, 2024
But the articles literally don’t exist. It’s 2024, do we still have to explain that chatbots can generate nonexistent “scientific” references?
Show threadFeathercrownAug 28, 2024
Ok but my meme was funny so clearly I win the conversation /s
Show threadɯᴉuoʇuɐAug 28, 2024
It is a funny pic, I’ll give you that.
Show threadSerinusAug 28, 2024

You were right. I attempted to verify one. It looks good, and it’s close, but it doesn’t exist.

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a commercial vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a commercial vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 96.12 (2018): 4441-4451.

The author exists. The journal exists. In fact, the author did something similar, I think for dogs. But those page numbers don’t line up, and the article title doesn’t exist.

Show threadEcco the dolphinAug 28, 2024

None of these article titles go anywhere when searched on google.

The articles from the Journal of Animal Science can’t be found on this archive: link

Do you have the DOI for any of these articles?

Archive of "Journal of Animal Science". - PMC

Show threadSerinusAug 28, 2024

Separately, I checked this one and it doesn’t exist.

This study, published in the Journal of Animal Science, evaluated the nutritional adequacy of a commercial vegan cat food. The authors found that the food was deficient in taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin A, and recommended that cats should not be fed this diet.

Source: Biourge, V., et al. “Nutritional evaluation of a commercial vegan cat food.” Journal of Animal Science 96.12 (2018): 4441-4451.

Show threadAmbii [She/her]Aug 29, 2024

So the comment is literally misinformation and it’s almost guaranteed to stay up because it’s pro-carnism.

🤭

Show threadEcco the dolphinAug 30, 2024

You got it. I even reported it.

For what it’s worth I’m not even vegetarian. I’m interested in pet health and there really isn’t any studies I can find saying vegan cat food is bad for cats… which I found very surprising. My cat is diabetic so I can only feed her prescription food anyway.

Show threadɯᴉuoʇuɐAug 28, 2024
This is so obviously generated by GPT, none of these articles exist.
Show threadrekorseAug 29, 2024

Why dont we try a more recent one?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/

Summary: In this review, we conducted a formal assessment of the evidence in the form of a systematic review. We found that there has been limited scientific study on the impact of vegan diets on cat and dog health. In addition, the studies that have been conducted tended to employ small sample sizes, with study designs which are considered less reliable in evidence-based practice. Whilst there have been several survey studies with larger sample sizes, these types of studies can be subject to selection bias based on the disposition of the respondents towards alternative diets, or since answers may relate to subjective concepts such as body condition. However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets. In addition, some of the evidence on adverse health impacts is contradicted in other studies. Additionally, there is some evidence of benefits, particularly arising from guardians’ perceptions of the diets. Given the lack of large population-based studies, a cautious approach is recommended. If guardians wish to implement a vegan diet, it is recommended that commercial foods are used.

The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review

There has been controversy within the scientific literature, and in the popular press and online media, around the safety of feeding vegan diets to dogs and cats. With an increase in adherence to meat-free diets in the human population, many guardians ...

PubMed Central (PMC)
Show threadmaegul (he/they)Aug 29, 2024

As someone who has worked in science, this passes the sniff test.

That is, science isn’t perfect, at all and is a constant process. Trying to win an argument by “citing the science” is often unscientific, however problematic it is that this can be leveraged by unscientific folks pushing an agenda.

Show threadMaple EngineerAug 28, 2024
Obligate and facultative carnivores. Don’t forget the dogs.
Show threadEcco the dolphinAug 28, 2024

“feculate carnivore” returns no results on google. Oblate carnivore returns results for obligate carnivores, looks to be that obligate/oblate is used interchangeably?

I haven’t heard either of these terms as a native English speaker. Perhaps they are regional terms, or terms from another language?

Bevor Sie zur Google Suche weitergehen

Show threadMaple EngineerAug 28, 2024
Obligate and facultative. Thanks for correcting me.
Show threadNegativeInfAug 28, 2024
Facultative means optionally in response to circumstance.
Show threadMaple EngineerAug 28, 2024

Facultative carnivore, a carnivore that does not depend solely on animal flesh for food but also can subsist on non-animal food.

Yes, they will optionally eat non-meat in response to circumstance but their diet consist largely of meat and they will choose meat when it is available.

Show threadNegativeInfAug 28, 2024
Oh, I was just suggesting the correct word as you said fecultative and I don’t think that’s a thing.
Show threadMaple EngineerAug 28, 2024
Dogs are facultative carnivores. Cats are obligate carnivores. Dogs are more opportunistic and flexible than cats.
Show threadNegativeInfAug 28, 2024
You mean fAcultative. I think whatever you are typing on is autocorrecting to fEcultative.
Show threadMaple EngineerAug 28, 2024
Ugh. Thanks.
Show threadsolrizeAug 28, 2024

The idea of Obligate Carnivore is fully lost on some. And that’s quite a sad reality.

It seems to me that a lot of people are using that term without knowing what it means. That, too, is a sad reality. It means that cats in the wild aren’t able to live off non-meat sources that they can find there, similar to how humans can’t live in subfreezing temperatures without shelter or clothing, It says nothing about whether their dietary needs can be fulfilled in a domestic environment. Maybe yes, maybe no, but you can’t just parrot the words “obligate carnivore” like a Fox News anchor and act like that gives you the answer. The world is more complicated than that.

In fact, based on other info, cats do seem to be able to survive on human-supplied vegan diets, but it’s less clear that they can enjoy optimal health on such a diet. So the reality seems to be somewhat shaded.

Even for humans, being a well-nourished vegan is somewhat difficult (you have to pay attention to stuff like protein combination). It’s even harder to be a so-called “raw vegan” (living entirely from uncooked vegetables such as in salads) but apparently it can still be done. Most human vegans consume a lot of beans and grains that are inedible without cooking.

You can imagine an animal species for which cooked beans and grains would be a completely healthy diet, and yet it that diet never found in the wild because wild animals don’t cook. Thus they would get their protein instead from animal sources, i.e. be obligate carnivores, even though they would be fine on rice and tofu. There is no logical incompatibility between “obligate carnivore” and “vegan diet”. It’s a question of biology that is species specific.

It doesn’t appear possible for humans to stay healthy for long periods as fruitarians (some people don’t want cut or kill living plants for food, but instead live off of fruits and nuts that have naturally fallen off the plants). But that can only be known through experimental observation, not linguistic knee jerks. You have to examine the details to understand the real situation for any particular species and food type.

Show threadObiniceAug 28, 2024

If someone can’t accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

Dang, is that what happened? It’s sad to think that there are people mistreating animals that they care about accidentally, through trying to apply their own human morals and rules to them.

Cats are hunters, they eat meat. If that’s an issue for your home then fair enough, your house your rules. Just don’t get a cat, or a carnivorous pet in general. There’s lots of cool pets out there that are herbivores :-)

Show threadMBMAug 28, 2024
I think it’s less applying their morals to the cat and more not wanting to support the meat industry. That said, yeah just don’t have a cat. I expect many vegans aren’t too big on the concept of pet ownership anyway.
Show threadrekorseAug 28, 2024

I don’t think this is the place for this discussion obviously but just know this subject has a lot of taboo and misinformation around it.

I recommend reading Obligate Carnivore: Cats, Dogs, and What it Really Means to be Vegan by Jed Gillen if you are interested in digging deep into it.

Show threadacosmichippoAug 28, 2024
What are Jed Gillan’s credentials? He has basically no search engine presence.
Show threadSatansMaggotyCumFartAug 28, 2024
I wrote a book about anuses through the ages and still don’t know if it should be anuses or anusi.
Show threadNιƙƙιDιɱҽʂAug 31, 2024
I think it’s anussy
Show threaditsathursdaySep 4, 2024
No shit?
Show threadstolyAug 28, 2024
Vegan here. Love my cat. My cat eats meat. End of story.
Show threadgrapheneAug 29, 2024
Wow, a normal person on the internet. Thank you for existing.
Show threadrekorseAug 28, 2024

I think all of this says more about the faith people have in the quality of their cat food.

Also people seem to love the words obligate carnivore but have not much understanding of the concept.

Oh and lastly, my favorite is discounting all evidence as anecdotal or “not good research”.

This is some of the stupidest dogpiling ive seen and really drives home how simple the average person on here is.

“Hur due, if people talk about the possibility of a vegan cat then surely their owners will starve them and refuse to change course until they die!”

Show threadacosmichippoAug 28, 2024
then ask your vet what they think.
Show threadHovenkoSep 4, 2024
But but vets are the part of the secret big pharma illuminati mafiaaa graaagruru!!!
Show thread4lanAug 29, 2024

Anytime I see someone use mocking to make point I completely write them off, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

That is completely unnecessary, explain your thoughts like an adult. This isn’t twitter

Show threadArbiterAug 30, 2024
Why have a pet cat then. There are many herbivores that make great pets.
Show threadrustyfishAug 30, 2024
Because they then probably read somewhere that rabbits like steak based diet and we have the whole thing all over again.
Show threadsramderAug 31, 2024

I’m just going to go ahead and stir this pot since I love cats.

~2003 Vegan roommate rented a room at my warehouse in one of the shittier parts of Oakland. Neat guy, lot’s of esoteric hobbies, bare him no ill will.

Watch vegan roommate mix up grey goo with water and microwave. Ask what is goo?

Goo is vegan cat food for Soni-chan that roommate gets from wise internet-vegans. Goo contains all essential nutrients and vitamins for vegan cat.

I mumbled something about cats being obligate carnivores without really knowing what it means. Vegan roommate clearly loves Soni-chan and Soni-chan loves vegan roommate.

Fast forward 1 month.

I don’t see the cat much, it stays in his room. I tell him he’s free to let it roam around the warehouse. Vegan roommate says he’s worried that the cat will slip outside… this seems sensible, it’s a small warehouse with roll up doors and no real way to keep a cat from escaping.

Fast forward 2 more months.

I come home one day. Hear vegan roommate sobbing loudly in his room.

Wait a few minutes, because privacy. Knock on door.

Soni-chan has become sick and died.

I offer what comfort I can and leave vegan roommate to grieve. Vegan roommate and friend drive to Los Angeles to bury cat in mother’s back yard. I am very sad.

Vegan roommate returns and accuses other roommate of poisoning cat. Says cat was happy and healthy for years living at victorian house in San Francisco. Cat only started to get sick after moving to warehouse.

I asked vegan roommate if vegan cat was inside/outside cat in San Francisco? Vegan roommate says yes!

My conclusion. Vegan’s are fucking morons. Except for that one guy up there in the comments who loves his cat… oh, and all the other vegans who aren’t complete ass douches… now please go away. 

Show threadSerinusSep 2, 2024
I understand you’re being dogpiled, but stay away from personal insults.
Show threadteftAug 28, 2024
Cats aren’t just hunters. They’re obligate carnivores. That means they literally can’t get all the nutrients they need from a plant based diet. They need the vitamin A in meat in the same way that we need vitamin C.