Lemmy world vegan community - hostile takeover

https://lemmy.ca/post/27276366

Lemmy world vegan community - hostile takeover - Lemmy.ca

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26218551 [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26218551] > cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26218550 [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26218550] > > > (posting to both communities) > > > > A carnist lemmy world instance admin has stepped in and meatsplained to the mods while restoring comments that violated the community’s rules. They deleted comments that they did not agree with, citing ‘misinformation’, and threatened to demod the mods if those comments were removed again. The comments were deleted and the admin was banned from the community as per violating the rules of the community, that was until they unbanned themselves (admin abuse) and unmodded two of the moderators because of “promoting harmfull actions against pets”. > > > > As far as it stands, if the lemmy world community wasn’t already not a safe vegan place for you (it really wasn’t) it most certainly isn’t now as carnists (lemmy world instance admin) currently mod it. > > > > I suggest any vegan who wants a safe and welcoming space to come and interact with vegantheoryclub.org [http://vegantheoryclub.org]. Sorry for any inconvienance that this may have caused. I am deeply upset at the admins actions today and don’t condone them whatsoever. > > > > > > [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/1b82385c-c446-42ca-9a0d-916459b78da9.webp] > > > > > > [https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/096ca2da-9e4c-426d-ae5e-f21d0ba48a75.webp]

Sounds like victim blaming imo
Asking for moderator Rooki's removal for misconduct - Lemmy.World

In my view as a long-time moderator, the purpose of moderation is conflict resolution and ensuring the sitewide rules are followed. As reported today by !vegan@lemmyworld [https://lemmy.world/post/18817262], moderator Rooki’s vision appears to be that their personal disagreement with someone else’s position takes priority over the rules and is enough to remove comments in a community they don’t moderate, remove its moderators for the comments, and effectively resort to hostile takeover by posting their own comment with an opposing view [https://lemmy.world/comment/11845583] (archived here [https://i.imgur.com/25hkrv5.png]) and elevating it for visiblity. The removed comments relate to vegan cat food. As seen in the modlog, Rooki removed a number of pretty balanced comments [https://imgur.com/a/X3NEQY7] explaining that while there are problematic ways to feed cats vegan, if done properly, cats can live on vegan cat food. Though it is a controversial position even among vegans, there is scientific research supporting it, like this review [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/] from 2023 or the papers [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Knight+A&cauthor_id=37703240] co-authored by professor Andrew Knight [https://www.andrewknight.info/about/bio/]. These short videos [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWoNOMVnZ6E&list=PLxKqgL2UcLaTWSJpyOMR79od2DWkaeAWp&index=12] could also work as a TL;DR of his knowledge on the matter. As noted on Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cat_food&oldid=1240624407#Vegetarian_and_vegan], some of the biggest animal advocacy organizations support the notion of vegan cat food, while others do not. Vegan pet food brands, including Ami, Evolution Diet, and Benevo have existed for years and are available throughout the world, clearly not prohibited by law in countries with laws against animal abuse. To summarize, even if you don’t agree with the position of vegan cat food being feasible, at the very least you have to acknowledge that the matter is not clear-cut. Moreover, there is no rule of lemmy.world [https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/] that prohibits those types of conversations unless making a huge stretch to claim that it falls under violent content “promoting animal abuse” in the context of “excessive gore” and “dismemberment”. For the sake of the argument, even if we assume that the truth is fully on Rooki’s side and discussions of vegan cat food is “being a troll and promoting killing pets”, the sitewide rules would have to be updated to reflect this view, and create a dangerous precedent, enabling banning for making positive comments about junk food (killing yourself), being parents who smoke (killing your kids), being religious “because it’s not scientific” and so on. Even reddit wouldn’t go that far, and there are plenty of conversations on vegan cat food on reddit. Given Rooki’s behavior and that it has already resulted in forcing the vegan community out of lemmy.world and with more likely to follow, I believe the only right course of action is to remove them as a moderator to help restore the community’s trust in the platform and reduce the likelihood of similar events in the future.

I think @[email protected] owes an explanation and apology. It’s fine to be invested in animal welfare, but if one learns that one is factually incorrect, then admitting it openly is the mature and responsible thing to do.
@Rooki - Lemmy.World

I am Rooki Cookie. I am a programmer and i try to help everyone :) [https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dc2b042c-d3f3-43ee-8a66-17c691407bda.png]

edit: Edited my response in the original post.
My cousin is a vet. She’s a vegan. Her cat is not nor would she ever make her cat a vegan. It just isn’t good for cats.
Among 1,380 respondents involved in cat diet decision-making, health and nutrition was the factor considered most important. 1,369 respondents provided information relating to a single cat fed a meat-based (1,242–91%) or vegan (127–9%) diet for at least a year. We examined seven general indicators of illness. After controlling for age, sex, neutering status and primary location via regression models, the following risk reductions were associated with a vegan diet for average cats: increased veterinary visits– 7.3% reduction, medication use– 14.9% reduction, progression onto therapeutic diet– 54.7% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of being unwell– 3.6% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of more severe illness– 7.6% reduction, guardian opinion of more severe illness– 22.8% reduction. Additionally, the number of health disorders per unwell cat decreased by 15.5%. No reductions were statistically significant. We also examined the prevalence of 22 specific health disorders, using reported veterinary assessments. Forty two percent of cats fed meat, and 37% of those fed vegan diets suffered from at least one disorder. Of these 22 disorders, 15 were most common in cats fed meat, and seven in cats fed vegan diets. Only one difference was statistically significant. Considering these results overall, cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets. This trend was clear and consistent. These results largely concur with previous, similar studies.
Vegan versus meat-based cat food: Guardian-reported health outcomes in 1,369 cats, after controlling for feline demographic factors

Increasing concerns about environmental sustainability, farmed animal welfare and competition for traditional protein sources, are driving considerable development of alternative pet foods. These include raw meat diets, in vitro meat products, and diets based on novel protein sources including terrestrial plants, insects, yeast, fungi and potentially seaweed. To study health outcomes in cats fed vegan diets compared to those fed meat, we surveyed 1,418 cat guardians, asking about one cat living with them, for at least one year. Among 1,380 respondents involved in cat diet decision-making, health and nutrition was the factor considered most important. 1,369 respondents provided information relating to a single cat fed a meat-based (1,242–91%) or vegan (127–9%) diet for at least a year. We examined seven general indicators of illness. After controlling for age, sex, neutering status and primary location via regression models, the following risk reductions were associated with a vegan diet for average cats: increased veterinary visits– 7.3% reduction, medication use– 14.9% reduction, progression onto therapeutic diet– 54.7% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of being unwell– 3.6% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of more severe illness– 7.6% reduction, guardian opinion of more severe illness– 22.8% reduction. Additionally, the number of health disorders per unwell cat decreased by 15.5%. No reductions were statistically significant. We also examined the prevalence of 22 specific health disorders, using reported veterinary assessments. Forty two percent of cats fed meat, and 37% of those fed vegan diets suffered from at least one disorder. Of these 22 disorders, 15 were most common in cats fed meat, and seven in cats fed vegan diets. Only one difference was statistically significant. Considering these results overall, cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets. This trend was clear and consistent. These results largely concur with previous, similar studies.

I am not convinced that depending on self-reporting of veterinary outcomes from people who are feeding their cat a vegan diet is a reliable way to structure the study

In fact, I would say that purely as a personal and anecdotal conclusion, I believe that the self reporting of an indistinguishable outcome from this study probably means that these vegan diets are harming the cats significantly, if the hidden factor of vegan-diet-feeding guardians underreporting bad outcomes were to be included.

That is true that cats are obligate carnivore however the plant-based diet is safe for cats as long as the nutrient taurine is being provided in their food.

We live in a day where a healthy diet can be fully synthesized, even for a human. I think the claim that a cat cannot flourish under one requires strict scrutiny and proper links to scientific articles demonstrating this finding.

edit: Because we do have evidence indicating such a diet is not harmful, so evidence that disputes this would need to exist.

www.mdpi.com/2306-7381/10/1/52

edit2: Another thing that occured to me that may help shed light on this: Humans have to eat food in order to survive, yes?

No, actually. We can hook you up to an IV and keep you alive for as long as we need by pumping the necessary nutrients directly into your bloodstream, bypassing your digestive tract altogether. We call this intravenous feeding.

The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review

There has been an increase in vegetarianism and veganism in human populations. This trend also appears to be occurring in companion animals, with guardians preferring to feed their animals in accordance with their own dietary values and choices. However, there has been controversy amongst vets and online commentators about the safety of feeding vegan diets to carnivorous species, such as cats and dogs. In spite of this controversy, to date there has been no systematic evaluation of the evidence on this topic. A systematic search of Medline, Scopus, and Web of Science was performed, identifying 16 studies on the impact of vegan diets on cat and dog health. Studies were appraised for quality using established critical appraisal tools or reporting guidelines. There was considerable heterogeneity in the outcomes measured, and study designs employed, with few studies evaluating key outcomes of interest. Grading of Recommendations, Assessment, Development and Evaluation (GRADE) was utilized for assessment of certainty in the evidence, with the evidence for most outcomes being assessed as low or very low. Whilst the quality and amount of evidence needs to be considered in formulating recommendations, there was no overwhelming evidence of adverse effects arising from use of these diets and there was some evidence of benefits. It is, however, recommended that future high-quality studies, with standardized outcome measures and large sample sizes, be conducted. At the current time, if guardians wish to feed their companion animals vegan diets, a cautious approach should be taken using commercially produced diets which have been formulated considering the nutritional needs of the target species.

MDPI
I had to be on IV feeding for a month last year and it felt like I was starving because I wasn’t getting any calories. I lost 20 kg in 2 weeks, despite the fact I was confined to a bed 24 hours.

What were you in for? Sounds to me like someone was pinching pennies on you, since there’s nothing stopping them from including the sugars and aminos your body needs.

Or maybe they thought you were overweight or something, but I’d think that’d be malpractice.

Gallstones turned into sepsis and pancreatitis
Yikes, didn’t know gallstones could do that. Glad you made it, sepsis is life threatening.
I went to the ER and the doctor said “You are dying,” which I took as a bad sign.

Yes, that would not be good news.

I wonder if that’s why you lost so much weight. Sepsis is bacteria in your bloodstream, and I can see pumping sugars into someone’s bloodstream when it has bacteria present as being a bad idea. 2 weeks to eliminate the infection sounds like a long time though, unless they ran into issues with unexpected antibiotic resistance.

Meatsplained? Sucks you guys lost your instance, but that is one of the dumbest words I’ve ever had the privilege of reading.

I cracked up when I read it.

Vegans and anti vegans seem to spend a lot of time on names

That’s exactly what a carnist blood-mouth would say! /s

(I am a vegan, but the insults that I have seen from the vegan communities here are all hilarious)

That would be a good band name, “Blood-Mouth and the Carnists” opening for “The Meatsplainers”!
I don’t really prefer car so i’m more of a commutenist
It’s so funny that they’re the largest instance. Only see incredible decisions coming out of there.

I actually agree in general, but this is like the one time in recent memory I have felt like whole heartedly cheering on the Lemmy.world administration team

If some other instance wants to scoop up the animal abuse demographic now that they are ejected from .world, I think we will all survive

If some other instance wants to scoop up the animal abuse demographic now that they are ejected from .world, I think we will all survive

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living that excludes all forms of animal exploitation and promotes animal-free alternatives.

That is misrepresenting the situations as vegans are the ones reducing animal abuse by not buying animals products and for holding those who do accountable.

Definition of veganism

What is a vegan and vegan food? What does veganism mean?

The Vegan Society

A philosophy that should not be forced on another animal against their nature.

There’s some hypocrisy here!

That is the no true scotsman fallacy. I could also say that bringing animals into our homes when they were originally from the wild is the hypocrisy here.

You could and would probably have a point.

But it doesn’t make it ok for you just because someone else did before.

Your hypocrisy is the point here.

I don’t own pets. So I’m not hypocritical in both scenarios.
You’re not even wrong.
Feed your pets their fucking meat for God’s sake.
Meat is not required for pets as there is enough studies to suggest this conclusion. 1 billion people are employed in animal agriculture so there is a strong conflict of interest occurring here.

Meat is not required for pets as there is enough studies to suggest this conclusion.

Bold claims require bold evidence. Natural meat eaters should naturally eat meat. To say otherwise requires a loooot of evidence.

Bold claims require bold evidence.

Cats are obligate carnivores. If they don’t eat meat, they will get sick and die. This doesn’t apply to dogs.

Veganism is valid, but it does conflict with some pet ownership.

If cats do not consume taurine they will die. This does not mean they need meat.

Yes, veganism sees “pets” as companion animals.

The comments were deleted and the admin was banned from the community as per violating the rules of the community

It’s a bold strategy Cotton

Was this some dumbass saying dogs and cats can be fine with a vegan diet? Because that is 100% Grade A bullshit and the admin’s actions were justified.

Please do not use ad hominems in your argument as we need to keep the discussion civil.

There are numerous studies suggesting that the plant-based diet is safe for dogs.

However for cats there are less studies, there are papers that suggest it is also safe for cats as long as taurine is provided in the diet.

Thanks for getting the word out about this, Beaver! With this and the pro-Zionist so-called ‘media bias fact check’, LW is turning to shit. I strongly dislike the anonymity of the actioning mod in the mod log. Can you name the PoS who decided to abuse their power to attack a vegan community? I’m not a fan of the theoryclub due to experiences with one mod, but I’ll be on the ML and solarpunk vegan communities!

Well, I don’t feel strongly either way for the specific issue at hand but this is drama llama content for sure!

The cool part of the Fediverse, if this is an issue that fellow vegans can’t see eye to eye on, then we could have two communities, possibly on two instances. One which believes animal welfare means that domesticated animals shouldn’t participate in killing other animals, viewing it as unecessary and cruel, and the other community that doesn’t and only considers human nutrition choices, with the view that forcing change in domesticated animals’ diets as unnatural and cruel.

Like it or not, each server’s admins determine the shape of discussion and can make the final decisions on some items of discourse in situations like this, call it carnist, tankie, whatever pejorative of choosing. The recourse is to move elsewhere.

I think I trust Kitten Lady over a bunch of randos on the Threadiverse. Video

gerbils, mice and bunbuns are herbivores, and need homes too. They‘d make great vegan buddies

Can Cats Be Vegan?

YouTube
Don’t trust randos on the internet you should read studies on the matter.
Okay, I’ll start by not trusting you.
I don’t blame you it’s natural to distrust the radical from your point of view.
For what it worth, the mods at vegan community are also deleting comment disagreeing with their point of view. It’s one thing to accuse rooki for power abuse, which i tend to agree as admin should be impartial to their ruling and not demote/remove based on emotion, but it’s ironic that the mod also did the exact same thing they accuse rooki for. Lesson here is, don’t fucking abuse power based on your emotion and then whine about it after losing that privilege. It’s a very highschool drama this one is.
It is a vegan community you’re talking about it should appeal to vegans and to the safety of animals first and foremost. People were coming into our community promoting violence against the other animals.

Experiment on yourself all you want, but not your companion who depends on you. This is not a great subject to gather support from a larger audience with.

That being said, controversial subjects need to be discussed, not deleted. Nobody was intentionally trying to harm animals here. These actions don’t feel right

That is a strawman. As there are numerous studies on how the vegan diet is safe for all stages of human life.

It is also proven to be safe for dogs and cats.

I don’t care what community we’re talking about, we’re discussing powermod/poweradmin here so i do care about the action of the mod and if you think just because you’re vegan you get to be exempted by common sense, then you’re mistaken. People are talking about food for pets, not for human consumption, it’s still a hot topic that you yourself said it’s less studied and can’t even be sure if it’s safe to do so, discussion amongst the community are needed, not swept under the rug. You guys are getting criticised here not because of being vegan, but because of the action you guys take, stop using veganism as your shield and looking like a bunch of imbecile.

People said veganism isn’t a religion but this looks more and more like one.

I’m just surprised how many people think veganism and ‘owning’ a pet are reproachable. Imho they are not

On top of that if you do ‘own’ an animal, why do you let your own philosophy trump their joy and wellbeing.

Afaik cats and dogs couldn’t be happier with a meaty treat. Why disallow that?

Pets are not vegan in the first place but only 5% of vegans will admit that.
I literally banned the lemmy world instance admin for saying otherwise, but they reversed it. “Owning” another animal is not vegan and is speciesist. I’ve only seen carnists go on about “vegan pet ownership”.
Animals belong in the wild in the vegan world.
Seeing vegans and the Lemmy.World admin team fighting… yes, let the hate flow through you and destroy each other.
Well for us vegans we’re fighting for love. The animals deserve to be protected.