Hyprland is now fully independent!

https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377028

Hyprland is now fully independent! - tchncs

geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025 [https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025] > > […] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.

I’ve got a track for that:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUdyuKaGQd4

Alice Merton - No Roots

YouTube
Does this have something to do with the author being banned from freedesktop?
Partially, it also had strong technical motivations.
But why?

Because Vaxry (the lead dev) got banned from contributing to wlroots or any other FDO projects.

As for why he was banned, this is the only thing I've read about the whole thing: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html

Basically, he violated the FDO Code of Conduct when being told that a particular thing he said/enabled in a Discord community would not be acceptable if it was seen in spaces covered by said CoC.

This appears to be his response.

FDO's conduct enforcement actions regarding Vaxry

violated their code of conduct in places where the code of conduct explicitly does not apply is extremely important here. He never once violated code of conduct anywhere that it did apply, and in public spaces was quite respectful, You could for sure find faults with him, but you could find way more faults with most other developers who still actively contribute to projects hosted on FDO.
Wlroots has a slow development time for features hyprland wants, as well as hyprland having a different release cycle then sway, often causing packaging nightmares.
Imagine having to rebase your entire project because you’re a piece of shit.
This is the first I’ve heard of it. What’s the deal?
Vaxry, the main dev of Hyprland, got banned from all aspects of freedesktop.org for multiple CoC violations.
Software

Yikes. Thanks for the summary. I’ll look into the details when I’m at my desktop.
Fuck Hyprland, its developers, and its asshole community. Context: drewdevault.com/…/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcem…
FDO's conduct enforcement actions regarding Vaxry

Damn, had no idea about this.
Any recommendations for a Hyprland refugee? Thinking of trying out niri
GitHub - YaLTeR/niri: A scrollable-tiling Wayland compositor.

A scrollable-tiling Wayland compositor. Contribute to YaLTeR/niri development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub
That looks awesome! Having used fvwm, I’m a fan of the scrollable desktop

After this news I switched to using KDE with Karousel, an animation plugin, and a rounded corners plugin (kwin scripts).

I also use a command runner plasmoid to somewhat replicate waybar from shell scripts.

I’ve been eyeing codeberg.org/river/river
river

A non-monolithic Wayland compositor

Codeberg.org
river is great. It’s far more stable than any other wayland compositor I’ve used.
I’ve been using swayfx, a fork of Sway with a little more eye candy.

I like niri, but I’ll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I’ll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.

Right now I’m using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.

I’m a fan of qtile. Used it when it was x11 only and use it on Wayland now.
None of the suggestions are even close to how good hyprland is. Like not even a little close.
river
Hyprland has special wlrkspaces, plugins which became part of my worksapace. I don’t think river can replace it. i3 has better features than this.
I can only recommend niri!
river

A non-monolithic Wayland compositor

Codeberg.org

Damn. I only discovered this project a few weeks ago and just started building a config.

Time to yay -Rcs hyprland.

My opinion: let’s separate the software and the people making it. If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.

Since this change is entirely a result of the bad behavior of the maintainer and would not have happened otherwise, this a perfect example of why we fundamentally cannot separate the work from the people who make it.

Even if you do not agree with the social backlash this person is getting, that backlash has real effects on the work.

I, for one, no longer trust that hyprland will remain a well-maintained piece of software given that the maintainer would rather increase their maintenance burden and diverge from using common tools instead of cooperating with the community.

Yeah the “organisation” stuff behind… To be honest anything can show negative or positive effects on the end product. I see it in my job, college and even the Unity or CrowdStrike can make such examples.

What if you need to file a bug? What if you have a question on the config that's not easily answered by the docs? If you never, ever find bugs and never, ever have questions, then sure, separate the two.

You use software. You don't use people, but you sure as hell rely on them.

Yeah that’s a better opinion than mine.

Which is why you should only care about the personal opinion of the people you rely on when they compromise their reliability.

I don’t care whether Linus Torvalds has feelings of hate towards whichever company or people he might want to give the middle finger so long as he continues doing a good job maintenance the kernel and those same people to provide quality code, regardless of whatever feelings he might have about whatever philosophy they might have.

Just do them how you would do with any other project. You really acting like it’s some alt right group. It’s just a edgy chronically online 20 yr old dude lol. The community is pretty normal. Only weird things you would see is edgy messages in announcements channel.
Please note that many users of FOSS are also developers or contributors. Who wants to report a bug or send a patch if the community is worse?

If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.

I didn’t write about its user base, I wrote about its community – the cesspool that engages among each other. That said, the moment someone opens a bug report, there’s a real chance that person gets harassed.

That’s absolutely sucks I agree…
Would be great, but some people are really strange. Especially bad if you have to let go of the work of some people, because you cant do it on your own.

“Let’s remove the social element of our social movement”

Great so what’s left at that point, the free value FOSS provides to corporations?

Having a tool that can be used greatly without restrictions without any additional bullshit. For me that’s FOSS but I know that when comes to maturity and development community is the main component of great end product.

The thing about Foss is that it’s typically community oriented. You are not only able to contribute and participate, but you’re invited to do so.

And if you’re an asshole and your community is toxic then who cares if your code is good? There are other projects I’d rather participate in. Cuz you’re not that good.

That’s correct, but sometimes in that sense you don’t engage with anyone and just read the docs. Also there are some cases when main contributors were toxic or unhelpful in a long run that community decided to create independent fork that’s more FOSS driven, not by elitism driven.

I have contributed to other projects without really needing to get involved into their community in any personal level, though.

I just make a pull request and when the code was good it was accepted, when not it got rejected. I had no need to engage in discussions on discord or anything like that.

If my contribution is rejected for whatever toxic reason then, the consequence of that is the code would stop being as good as it could have (because of the contributions being rejected/slowed down), so forking would be in order, because of the code no longer being good.

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this

I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I’ve seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn’t RTFM.

Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.

All of these people are just reaching lol. I also don’t understand how any of this would do benefit. Most of the people here cheering have not contributed 1℅ of what varxy did.

That drewvault guy lectures all day instead of maintaining his own projects. Why are we acting as if we are in abundance of open source devs/maintainers.

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Because Vaxry didn’t like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn’t mind genocide:

I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.

20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz

To his point: if not “discuss”, what is the correct approach against fascism? war? ignore, forget, and let it continue and fester on its own?

To me, fascism is enough of a stupid position proven to not make much sense that it falls on itself the moment you start discussing it.

I would have expected that it would be the fascists the ones who are unable/unwilling to discuss their positions, since to me their position is the less rational one. So it’s certainly very strange whenever I hear people not wanting to discuss it…

Aw, man. I think Vaxry’s got entrapped here.

He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.

(Please note: I don’t side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)

I think he’s the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.

I can totally see him say “If a group of people’s solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that’s all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it’s safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated.”

That’s an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that’s what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won’t say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.

Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn’t say or mean.

My two cents.

That discussion didn’t come out of the blue, though. It was in the aftermath of behavior on his Discord where his position was “I didn’t say the things and I can’t moderate”. Also, as a person of Polish descent who follows Polish politics probably a bit closer than the average person, I see a pattern of PiS party ideology / common behavior by PiS supporters of being at the far right and the claiming ignorance when their behavior leads to bad press.

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said “we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again”. And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn’t get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely “fixed” is Vaxry’s own misleading interpretation.

I don’t know, man. I read Vaxry’s response and I think that he has a point. There was an incident, and it was dealt with.

Then someone from redhat (because they e-mailed him with from RedHat address) told him “hey we saw improvements on you moderating your community. Great! But if you break our CoC again, we’ll ban you!” To which he replied “Uh, we don’t have a CoC, we don’t belong to your organization, what’s is this about?” And the person replied “This is not a RedHat position. And again, we’ll ban you!”

He explained this in a blogpost and posted the full e-mail conversation.

He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.

I’ve also read Vaxry’s response and it’s complete nonsense. It’s even apparent in your condensed version.

Uh, we don’t have a CoC

Exactly. This is more than “an incident” as you put it. It’s a long-lasting pattern of Vaxry refusing to commit to any standards of behavior. He explicitly calls “upholding any value” nothing but an inconvenience. His only reaction to his community ridiculing the concept of a CoC is to say “nice one”.

What’s funny is that the person who opened the issue said “Instead of attacking the post, could you provide some evidence against it? (e.g. say “Trans rights are human rights”)” and it was completely ignored. See, the CoC is not about the text itself. It’s about taking an open stance against bigotry. Vaxry can cry all day about how this one incident is misrepresented and how moderation has become more strict now, but nowhere in this discussion or the FDO emails or his own blog about the issue have I seen him take an actual moral stance on the issue.

we don’t belong to your organization

What does this have to do with anything? FDO, a space that aims to be LGBTQ+ friendly, banned a bigoted person from participating, as they should. It’s such a stupid childish argument to say “but I didn’t out myself as a bigot in a commit message I submitted to you, checkmate!”. No-one cares. You can’t leave your “fuck trans people, lol” sign at the door and walk in, mate. You’re still a toxic asshole and you’re still a threat to the LBGTQ+ people we want to participate in our community.

He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.

This is just so funny to hear from Vaxry himself. After people have repeatedly tried to explain to him that not enforcing any code of conduct on a toxic community is going to make it an unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people, Vaxry is shocked to find that LGBTQ+ people are afraid of being discriminated against!

Oh, but no, you see it’s because of the “misrepresentation”! Vaxry’s had made it so clear through his words and actions that trans rights are human rights and that bigotry is unacceptable, so it can’t possibly be on him. Even as he’s posting pictures this conversation where he’s accused of being a transphobe, and a trans person is expecting to get rejected, does he point out how he’s not a transphobe and how he respects all human rights? Nope, he only says that he only cares about the code.

But that’s just me picking apart his comments in a few specific discussions. What if he has in fact taken a moral stance, but just not in these particular discussions where’s he’s felt attacked and pressured into making a statement?

He did post this in one of his blog posts:

With that, I believe that every human’s opinion is valuable and important, and most crucially, equal. There is no point in having some people’s opinions be more important than others. That is the essence of discrimination.

Hey, that’s not bad. There’s mention of equality here and he seems against discrimination! Now let’s read the rest of this Inclusive community activists are harming FOSS blog post and see what it’s really about! Oh no, the above statement was only to set the stage for accusing SJWs of not understanding that not everyone agrees with them and how they shouldn’t “cancel” us for “saying bad words”. So he does think to talk about equality and discrimination, just not in any of the above discussions. But he’ll do it here to defense people acting like assholes on the internet!

And then he says this:

if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server

that is inclusivity

So there you have it. Vaxry will literally accept Hilter into his community, just casually interacting with Jewish people (presumably he doesn’t ban them from participating). It’s all fine, just as long as the gassing happens outside his own platform. Gosh, I wonder why people are feeling unwelcome in his community. Surely it is the misrepresentation of his views.

Add a Contributor Code of Conduct · Issue #3209 · hyprwm/Hyprland

Description Contributor codes of conduct are very important to all open source projects as to avoid discriminatory practices. I feel that Hyprland could really use a Code of Conduct that may also a...

GitHub

I think you’re attributing malice to something else. Bear with me while I point out these two things:

First, The tomatoes quote is a consequence of something he mentioned later:

I firmly believe that FOSS is literally for everyone.

And second, he goes on to write this:

It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other. For whatever reasons they may, we still should not ostracize them as long as they can interact with the FOSS community in a respectful manner, without arguing about those issues in places not meant for such discussions.

Here’s what I think: The dude is dogmatically dense. Not a literal nazi or transphobe. And even though I don’t agree with his stance, I still think he has a point: extremes are bad. And if the far-right is bad (“you’re either with us or against us; death to you!”), the far-left is bad too (“you’re either with us or against us; cancelled!”)

I’ve been there. Even after explaining that I was a transgender rights ally and supporter, and asked a question about sports - a question, as in I was trying to get myself informed, this one mod lashed out at me as if I was the devil, simply because my views didn’t perfectly align with theirs before getting answers. It really caught me off guard. And she wouldn’t budge. It’s either her view or “pure unadulterated transphobia,” which I found ridiculous. That’s extreme.

But I’m capable of trying to reach to a middleground, whereas Vaxry stays firm - and that’s fine. Don’t like it? Don’t participate in his community! But don’t demonize him for some imaginary intentions you’re placing on him.

There are only so many ways “I don’t care if Hitler is active in my community as long as he doesn’t talk about the gassing in my discord” can be interpreted and “I just want to code” is not one of them. For starters, the practical issues of moderation and whether he wants to do it are never relevant to his argument throughout the blog post. He’s saying that “we should not care about people’s political views on a community unrelated to politics, as long as they do not use it to spread their agenda”. The words “we”, “should”, and “care” are pretty clear. This is a moral statement.

There are many more quotes that make it clear he is not talking about moderating his own community. His point about Hitler is clearly used to demonstrate his thoughts on how communities in general should be run, and why FOSS communities are getting it wrong.

Inclusive communities, in the eyes of such advocates, are often the opposite of inclusive. They will try and find things that you do outside of your proffessional persona, or often infer, guess, meddle with, or lie about what you say and stand for. Then, once they have the “ammo”, they will ostracize you. Ban, kick, call for removal, censorship.

Unlike those people, I stand by my stance that even if you are something that the country I live in disagrees with, you still are free to use, contribute to, and be a part of the greater FOSS community.

It’s also sad to see that the inclusive communities for which such people “fight for”, are accepting this type of, ultimately hateful and bigoted, behavior

Bonus points for explicitly listing LGBT issues as a topic one might disagree with.

It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other

It’s all unambiguous. Vaxry is at no point talking about the practicalities of keeping Hitler out of his community. He is explaining why he thinks Hitler should be welcome into his community and the FOSS community in general, just as long as he doesn’t use these communities to further his goal of gassing people. If there was ever any confusion over whether Vaxry doesn’t care about the toxicity or just can’t deal with it, this blog post definitely clears it up. He doesn’t care. He’s welcoming evil and harmful people in his community and in all communities and he takes a stance against the people who have an issue with this.

Your interpretation doesn’t work unless you ignore all the words he uses, the logic of his arguments, and even the fucking title. Not to mention all the other times he’s talked about these issues. In so many blog posts about how his community is unfairly represented and how his ban was unwarranted, Vaxry has not once just simply stated in any terms that he is not okay with evil and harmful people in his community, or that he even acknowledges trans rights. The only thing I’ve seen him say on the incident of harassing a trans person by editing their profile to change their pronouns is that it was “unprofessional”. No mention of ethics or possible harm done.

And if the far-right is bad (“you’re either with us or against us; death to you!”), the far-left is bad too (“you’re either with us or against us; cancelled!”)

Ah yes, seeking people to harm because of their race and innate characteristics and banning people from your platform because of their morals and behavior. Equally bad things. I see the rights and wrongs of both sides now.

There are only so many ways “I don’t care if Hitler is active in my community as long as he doesn’t talk about the gassing in my discord” can be interpreted

That’s exactly what he is saying. I don’t agree with it, but if you read his stuff, you can tell that it’s pedantry rather than hate what makes him say that.

and “I just want to code” is not one of them.

That’s your opinion, and we’re going in circles.

For starters, the practical issues of moderation and whether he wants to do it are never relevant to his argument throughout the blog post.

But they are, though.

He’s saying that “we should not care about people’s political views on a community unrelated to politics, as long as they do not use it to spread their agenda”. The words “we”, “should”, and “care” are pretty clear. This is a moral statement.

Moral or pragmatic, sure, whatever you say. But the base is not standing on hate. Just… Apathetic practicality? Laziness?

There are many more quotes that make it clear he is not talking about moderating his own community. His point about Hitler is clearly used to demonstrate his thoughts on how communities in general should be run, and why FOSS communities are getting it wrong.

We don’t disagree here. But so what? You could also say “fascist shouldn’t exist,” and someone somewhere will say that you’re condoning genocide.

Bonus points for explicitly listing LGBT issues as a topic one might disagree with.

You’re not saying anything we haven’t discussed already - we’ve the term transphobia several times already.

It’s all unambiguous. Vaxry is at no point talking about the practicalities of keeping Hitler out of his community. He is explaining why he thinks Hitler should be welcome into his community and the FOSS community in general, just as long as he doesn’t use these communities to further his goal of gassing people.

Exactly. We’re going in circles here. You’re attributing malice to this sentence. You’re saying that he is secretly saying “hurr hurr I am a nazi and this is how I get away with it.” He isn’t. I don’t like it, I fucking hate nazis. But I don’t think he is one. He’s probably autistic before being a nazi.

If there was ever any confusion over whether Vaxry doesn’t care about the toxicity or just can’t deal with it, this blog post definitely clears it up. He doesn’t care. He’s welcoming evil and harmful people in his community and in all communities and he takes a stance against the people who have an issue with this.

Correct. More of the same.

Your interpretation doesn’t work unless you ignore all the words he uses, the logic of his arguments, and even the fucking title.

It does work.

The only thing I’ve seen him say on the incident of harassing a trans person by editing their profile to change their pronouns is that it was “unprofessional”.

Because it was unprofessional from his point of view. He’s not secretly and deliberately condoning transphobia.

Ah yes, seeking people to harm because of their race and innate characteristics and banning people from your platform because of their morals and behavior. Equally bad things. I see the rights and wrongs of both sides now.

Again, we don’t disagree. I should have that phrase stored somewhere, ready to be pasted when discussing with you.

Look, show me a picture of him doing the nazi salute or protesting a pride parade, and we’ll talk.

Otherwise, I stand by what I said. The dude is a dense moron. Not evil.