Is cake a sort of bread?

https://lemmy.ml/post/18093665

Is cake a sort of bread? - Lemmy

So according to Merriam Webster bread is: a usually baked and leavened food made of a mixture whose basic constituent is flour or meal And cake is: A: a breadlike food made from a dough or batter that is usually fried or baked in small flat shapes and is often unleavened B: a sweet baked food made from a dough or thick batter usually containing flour and sugar and often shortening, eggs, and a raising agent (such as baking powder) And yet some people don’t think that cake is bread. What’s your opinion?

Sort of, yeah. If you asked me to categorize foods as “bread-like” or not, I would definitely count cake. But I would probably not make a sandwich with cake.

Oh would you not? Then what is the jelly or frosting fillings between the layer? Isn’t that A JELLY SANDWICH??

(I am being aloof for the purpose of humor)

It’s not every day that a comment makes me self-reflect and challenge my beliefs like this.

Thank you for opening my mind, Buglefingers. I’ve got a lot of thinking to do.

cake is: A: a breadlike food

Why are you questioning the definition you’ve provided?

If you google the question, you’ll get lots of people saying that cake isn’t bread, despite being similar.

I think it’s that people like certain levels of specificness. Like, bread, pizza, and broccoli are all foods, but if you said “I had a food for lunch” that’d sound weird.

It’s not necessarily that cake isn’t a type of bread or that the two aren’t closely related. It’s that we have a super-common and more specific word for it (cake) so it sounds awkward when you use a different word that might be technically accurate, but is a weird choice in practice.

Same for a lot of things. A hot dog and a sub are technically the same thing. But if a waiter dropped off your hot dog and said “here’s your pork sub”, you’d probably look at them funny.

You asked the question, “is a cake a sort of bread” and the dictionary is explicitly stating “cake is a breadlike food”.

Are you instead asking if “lots of people” is a more reliable source than the dictionary?

No but like something being bread like doesn’t mean that it is bread, just similar to bread.

Something can be breadlike without being bread, in a similar way to how whales are fishlike without being fish.

The dictionary doesn’t dictate how words should be used; it reports how people use them. Consulting a dictionary is a way to find out how “lots of people” use a word.

whole category of cakes are called “quick bread” (ex. banana bread) because they’re baked in a loaf pan (they get the name from the shape rather than the ingredients)

they get the name from the shape rather than the ingredients

I was under the understanding that the main difference was that quick breads used chemical leavening agents (e.g. baking powder) instead of yeast. Hence the “quick” in “quick bread”. Wikipedia (always a source of unblemished truth /s) seems to agree with my understanding.

Quick bread - Wikipedia

Yep, Irish soda bread is a quickbread made from a dough with baking soda as the rising agent, and it is absolutely a bread, not a cake.
It’s much closer to a cake, really; it’s a batter more than a dough. It’s not sweet though, which is a defining factor for a lot of people.
I’m not sure if you’ve tried making it but the recipes that I have tried all result in a dough that’s capable of standing on its own as a boule, which I don’t think anyone would call a batter.
When I make it it’s much wetter than that and definitely needs to to poured into a bread pan. This is for Irish Brown Bread, not for the white flour soda bread with currants and whatnot.
Here’s a picture of the dough from a similar recipe to what I use e6r2s2g3.rocketcdn.me/…/Soda-bread-dough.jpg . If you do a search for “Irish soda bread” you’ll get almost all the same kind of pictures of X cut boules with some kind of add ins. Sounds like the brown bread is something different, but it’s probably still yummy.
Traditional Irish Soda Bread - The Irishman's Wife

This traditional Irish soda bread recipe is an easy, rustic loaf of bread that you can prep and bake in under an hour. Winner!

The Irishman's Wife

Yeah, that’s much different than the brown bread my family calls Irish soda bread. Here’s the recipe:

  • ½ lb./225g whole wheat flour (1-3/4 c.)
  • 3 oz./75g unbleached white flour (2/3 c.)
  • 1½ oz./40g porridge oatlets (3 heaping Tbsp.)     (steel cut oatmeal or John McCann–in a tin)
  • 1½ oz./40g  wheat bran (1 c.)
  • 1½ oz./40g wheat germ (1/2 c.)
  • ½ tsp. baking soda
  • ½ tsp. salt
  • 1 pint/600 ml buttermilk (2-1/8 to 2-1/3 c.)
  • Preheat a cool oven, 300ºF/150ºC/Gas mark 2.
  • Grease and flour a 2 lb./900g loaf tin (I use an 8-1/2 x 4-1/2 x 2-5/8 inch bread pan).
  • Mix all the dry ingredients together thoroughly.  Then, add them to the buttermilk and mix quickly to make a wet dough (I have found it better to use only 500 ml or 2-1/8 c. buttermilk).  Turn into loaf pan and bake in the preheated oven on the very bottom shelf for 2 to 2-1/4 hrs.  When cooked, the bread will shrink from the pan slightly and sound hollow when rapped on the bottom with the knuckles.
  • i'd argue banana bread is cake, and is not bread, even though it has "bread" in its name

    if you were offered a slice of banana bread but they were out so you got a slice of sandwich loaf instead, i suspect you'd be more annoyed than if you got a slice of chocolate cake

    And the texture of actual sweet breads is way different than the texture of banana bread. Breads are chewy, cakes are crumbly.
    Bread usually has yeast, a cake never does.
    What about pancakes?
    They aren’t a cake, and they don’t have yeast either
    Lots of cakes in Germany for example are traditionally made from yeasted doughs
    I always used yeast when doing a cake, so the dough rise.

    All words are made up, so if you would like to define cake as a bread then I see no problem with that personally.

    I am unsure if others would agree with you, but they might given specific context.

    Personally, I don’t care too much, all I know is that cake it delicious.

    P.S. There are definitely cakes that are not at all bread like though, like ice cream cake or cheese cake etc.

    Cake is not bread.

    According to Urban Dictionary, cake is: Another word meaning ass or butt.

    My argument: Bread is leavened and whose basic mixture is flour or meal. (Usually baked, but so are most cakes so I’ll leave this as moot.)

    If a cake can meet those requirements, Yes, it would be a bread.

    Otherwise, it would be a breadlike food. In the cake definition it uses a “breadlike food” probably due to to the latter half of the statement “often unleavened”. This would lead me to presume that most cakes, while breadlike, do not meet the requirements. It’d be more reasonable to make a statement on the majority (breadlike) than minority (Bread).

    Not bread. Cake doesn’t use yeast (leavened basically means using yeast). Bread does.

    Cake uses eggs, bread doesn’t.

    Cake is expensive to buy or make. Bread isn’t as bad.

    I think we clearly know it’s not bread. Back me up here someone. I’m the person being referred to in the OP btw.

    Egg bread exists.

    What’s your argument about eggs now?

    what the actual hell is egg bread

    I still believe myself to be in the right and the majority of people I’ve spoken to have agreed with my opinions.

    It’s just not bread. It’s just not.

    www.allrecipes.com/…/a-number-one-egg-bread/

    There’s also cake that uses yeast/leavening:

    allrecipes.com/…/drozdzowka-polish-yeast-plum-cak…

    So I’m pretty sure the ingredient angle is out, unless you want to go by proportion of sugar/flour/whatever, which is a much more involved discussion, but IMO, will also be a fruitless one…

    I don’t think ingredients are the dividing line here between cakes/breads, IMO, it might be texture/consistency of the loaf, but even that’s a hard sell. There are some very dense breads and some very airy cakes.

    I’m more leaning towards “cake” being a label we put on bread products when we deem it appropriate.

    The fact that a lot of this was defined by medieval standards, where people did some pretty strange things, especially with naming, IMO, is the root of the problem. Today, as we create new things we have specific terms for them that defines that thing and limits on what the thing is and isn’t. A lot of scientific naming has been refined in the last century because of the bad/inaccurate naming of things, mainly because they were named and defined well before we had the technology to properly understand what we were looking at.

    Culinary arts, which can be scientific, but the naming certainly isn’t, is not an exact science. If you take either of the above recipes and add an extra quarter cup of flour or something to either, it probably won’t ruin the product. It might make it taste different than intended, but probably not ruined.

    In all the difference between cake and bread is blurry at best. At worst, cake is just a specific type of bread product, which is defined fairly loosely by how we feel about it.

    As a related fact, muffins and cupcakes have been in a war for which one is better for you. Cupcakes can have fewer calories, but muffins seem to have better marketing, so people feel like they’re better/more healthy, than eating cupcakes.

    I dunno, I’m just some guy.

    A Number-One Egg Bread

    Egg bread is delicious on its own, but this slightly sweet Hawaiian concoction is sublime when used for French toast, bread pudding, or fondue.

    Allrecipes
    Tbh dictionaries being outdated was a thing that I was thinking about

    As a general rule, I would see in a majority of cases that in a bread, gluten development is encouraged to provide a chewy texture. In a cake, you want to avoid gluten development to have a light and fluffy texture.

    Special bread flours have high gluten content and cake flours have lower gluten for that reason.

    Now we of course do have many exceptions, such as banana bread is low gluten and very sweet, while many biscuit recipes call for cake flour, but no one would call a biscuit a cake. In both those cases, I don’t think you would like a banana bread or biscuit that has the strong gluten structure that a proper baguette has.

    Cakes (especially something like donuts) can be yeast risen, and some breads like matzo or tortillas have no leavening, or breads can use chemical leavening like Irish soda bread.

    I wouldn’t consider banana bread a bread. It’s a cake and the bread part is just a name.
    I personally agree with you on that. Anything much sweeter than raisin bread like muffins and cupcakes I count as cakes.
    If gluten is required, then gf bread isn’t bread. But anyone who’s eaten gf bread would call it bread. Different but still bread.

    I don’t know if I’ve ever had GF bread, so I had to look up how it’s made. I wondered how the bread would have the proper structure to rise without a gluten matrix, and it seems I was on to something. Reading up on it a bit, gums and starches are used to replace the function of the missing gluten. So while GF bread has no gluten, it’s still made with a gluten replacement, and the same function is required for proper results.

    If we change my qualifier to bread typically having a deliberately developed structural matrix with high elasticity, it covers wheat and GF breads. It still is fairly universal we want chewy breads and non-chewy cakes.

    bread typically having a deliberately developed structural matrix with high elasticity,

    Cake fits into this, I’d say.

    Whenever it comes down to definitions I like to go to expert definitions rather than common language. For food (are tomatoes a fruit?) I use FDA definitions, for which the definition of bread excludes what you’d mean by “cake”.

    I don’t think the FDA defines cake, but it does specify how different types of cakes, brownies and such should be labeled (search for “cake” here).

    FDA Definition of Bread and Rolls | Proccesses | BAKERpedia

    Baked goods such as breads and rolls are legally defined and identified by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) based on their formulation (type and amount of ingredient used) and unit weight.

    BAKERpedia

    If it fits loosely under the food pyramid category and I can therefore eat a ton of it and say it’s just my daily bread, then yes.

    But sugars are at the top and we all know the higher a thing is the more important it is. Can we double-dips on the chart? Also yes.

    food pyramid

    You’re really showing your age with this one. The food pyramid got replaced 13 years ago

    Crumbling, confusing Food Pyramid replaced by a Plate - Harvard Health

    With much fanfare, the USDA launched MyPlate, a replacement for the outdated and much-maligned Food Pyramid. The colorful quarters of the plate–green for vegetables, red for fruits, orange fo...

    Harvard Health
    Wow, the dairy industry must’ve paid a lot to get that spot replacing water. Milk is atrocious for diet and filled with bad fats, wit little added nutritional value. At least cheeses are condensed protein and fat. Not considering that most of the world is intolerant to it.

    it's a doctrinal difference

    also you could possibly look at something like gluten formation, but i suspect there's a gluteny cake out there as well as a glutenless bread

    Cake was bread historically

    I think all other dough-based dishes derive from bread really, since I believe it’s the most basis thing ye can make…

    Nowadays, my definition of modern cake = bread + defined-sweetness + fluffiness and softness

    Although clear examples of the difference between cake and bread are easy to find, the precise classification has always been elusive. For example, banana bread may be properly considered either a quick bread or a cake. Yeast cakes are the oldest and are very similar to yeast bread. Such cakes are often very traditional in form and include such pastries as babka and stollen.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake#Comparison_with_bread

    Cake - Wikipedia

    Cake is just uppity bread. Acting all fancy and getting dressed up for special occasions. You changed, bro.
    Do bagels count as cake based on calorie count or bread based on texture/flavor or doughnuts based on shape?
    Rye bread looks like chocolate cake. So… is bread a sort of cake?

    US bread taste like bread, it’s soft and sugary.

    I would turn it the other way breads are a sort of cake but more minimalist (water, flour, yeast, and a pinch of salt) and then there is some pimped bread which moves toward the cake, like when you add milk or even eggs

    I think the clue is in the definition you posted:

    a breadlike food.

    As a german I would say that bread and cake are very similar, but distinct things, but there border is very blurry. Take brioche, I think that’s more of a bread, but it’s very soft, moist and sweet, so it leans heavily towards cake. But I’d say in general bread is more savory or neutral, made to be eaten with something, and cake is sweet and supposed to be a food on it’s own.

    that’s what I don’t get. OP posts how they specifically aren’t the same and then goes on like he didn’t just write that.
    Yes, cake is bread. This is controversial because of the savoury vs. sweet distinction we have, but there’s no consistent way to include all the breads of the world without including Western cakes too.
    I think saying cake is bread is like saying scrambled eggs is an omelette.
    Isn’t it more like saying an omelette is scrambled eggs? And yes, actually, the only difference between a scramble and omelette is shape.
    The ingredients used in both are also different. Don’t have to be, but usually are.

    Interesting. What would you expect in one but not the other? I can’t think of anything, but it might be regional.

    Plain scrambled eggs would be the scramble equivalent of a baguette with just flour, water and salt. An omelette loaded with things might be more like the cake.

    Exactly. And there are sweet brrads like brioche that are almost cakes. And plain cakes like banana “bread”. By point exactly is that scrambled eggs are more usually plain, and omelettes are more usually rich with other ingredients, but prepared differently, like how bread is kneaded but cake not.

    I’d say cakes are all bread, but not all bread is cake. Likewise, I’d say omelettes are a type of egg dish, as are plain scrambled eggs, but not all egg dishes are one of those.

    If you kept to Western cuisine you could argue bread as a distinct category both within “homogeneous baked goods” or something, but then ingera (for example) would probably end up being a cake, and that’s not quite right. It’s more important that bread include all solid grain-based staples the world over than that it exclude Western cake, IMO.