Simon Brooke

@zyd @falken @oantolin @jesus

> We're hardly ever typing function definitions into it so I rather think of it as your workbench.

This is because Common #Lisp is designed around text editing files in file store rather than structure editing actual Lisp structures in memory -- to the extent that it's pretty hard to retrofit a structure editor into Common Lisp.

I feel, having grown up in the days of structure editors, that this is an enormous own goal.

Jul 7, 2024 at 9:32pmWeb
Show threadOmar AntolínJul 7, 2024
@simon_brooke @zyd @falken @jesus I think I missed that era of structure editors! All the editors I know use text and all of the attempts at structure editors I've read about seem to have failed to gain any traction. Which structure editors did you use?
Show threadSimon BrookeJul 7, 2024
@oantolin @zyd @falken @jesus
I *think* the editor in BBC #Lisp was just called 'edit'; the editor in Cambridge Lisp was invoked as 'fedit' when editing functions, and I *think* that was pretty much the lifted direct from Portable Standard Lisp. The structure editor in #InterlispD was invoked as DEdit (for 'display edit'). Interlisp had the structure editor well integrated with the package manager, and I roughly copied that into Portable Standard Lisp...
Show threadSimon BrookeJul 7, 2024

@oantolin @zyd @falken @jesus Ah! Acornsoft (BBC) Lisp did not come with a built in editor, but the manual told you how to write your own, here:

https://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/tmp/LISP_on_the_BBC_Microcomputer.pdf#page=115

The Cambridge Lisp editor was very similar to (a bit more sophisticated than) this.

I absolutely loved these editors; they felt very natural to me. And of course they completely eliminate the problem of balancing brackets.

[Edit: corrected the URL, so that other people can read it. Whoops!]

Show threadMarce CollJul 8, 2024
@simon_brooke @oantolin @zyd @falken @jesus afair the interlips structural editor was invoked as SEdit, right?
Show threadSimon BrookeJul 8, 2024

@dziban @oantolin @zyd @falken @jesus Not until the Medley release, and we've been disagreeing in this thread about whether SEdit counts as a structure editor at all. It may be, and I may be wrong, but it was certainly very different from DEdit.

I personally really liked DEdit, and very much disliked SEdit; but other people clearly did/do like it.

Show threadPaolo AmorosoJul 8, 2024

@oantolin You can still try the structure editor of the Medley Interlisp environment, SEdit. It eventually replaced DEdit and supports Interlisp and Common Lisp.

https://interlisp.org

@simon_brooke @zyd @falken @jesus

Medley Interlisp Project

The Medley Interlisp Project a retrofuturistic software system What did we leave behind on the path to developing today's computer systems? Could there be lessons for the future of computing hidden in the past? Enter the Medley software environment to explore these questions.

The Medley Interlisp Project
Show threadSimon BrookeJul 8, 2024

@amoroso It's not a structure editor, it's a text editor, surely?

I mean, it's getting on for forty years since I used it, but I thought it was a huge step backwards.

Show threadPaolo AmorosoJul 8, 2024
@simon_brooke Although it works differently internally, to the user it appears as SEdit manipulates structures. Which is most of the experience modern developers aren't familiar with.
Show threadSimon BrookeJul 8, 2024
@amoroso I must clearly try it again. I remember disliking it extremely!
Show threadPaolo AmorosoJul 8, 2024

@simon_brooke I apprached SEdit as a new user and loved the experience:

https://journal.paoloamoroso.com/medley-interlisp-structure-editing-first-impressions

https://journal.paoloamoroso.com/paoloamoroso/demonstrating-interlisp-structure-editing

Medley Interlisp structure editing: first impressions

Although I used several Lisp systems over a couple of decades, I never tried structure editing. The chance finally came when I encounter...

Paolo Amoroso's Journal