Dale Gardner
Fi 🏳️⚧️Hey so,
This windows recall thing?
Enables domestic abuse.
Like, flat-out.
This 'feature' means that someone in an abusive relationship now has a canonized part of the OS monitoring their activities that can be then invoked and studied by the abuser.
Ain't no amount of -group policy- bullshit gonna fix this,
because Microsoft -doesn't allow- the granularity of administration required to defuse this for non-corporate users.
"Use Linux" is not an appropriate response.
People do not always have the agency to choose their operational environment and you cannot fix structural unsafety with individual choice.
This is not a jape nor a joke, and I am not willing to countenance this as an argument.
Do not perpetuate abusive situations by blaming a victim for the environment they are in.
How -do- you fix this?
You do not put the capability to automate screen-scraping into the OS as a canonized feature.
Yes, this does not stop screen scraping from being possible - it's been around for years.
Disallowing it from the canonical image -of- the OS, however, means that there is an increased barrier in the way of implementing this: an abuser will need to learn how to implement this, and will need to rely on third-party software not integrated into the OS as expected functionality.
This in turn means that abuse victims are able to rely on tools already in-use to remove third-party software from the computer in order to have more assurance of private operation.
Yes, no single measure is capable of ensuring safety.
This is why it's a security -system- and not a security -item-; systemic effects require an understanding of the entire context in order to evaluate the safety or unsafety of the system.
kelleynnn@munin It's as if tech was being designed to increase its makers control over us instead of to actually help us
Dave Lane 
🇳🇿@munin even if they cannot take advantage of it in the near term, I think there's huge value in people knowing there's a viable alternative. I think discouraging that reflex in people to 'help' is poorly considered, especially when they follow the 'well, you could move to Linux' with 'let me know how I can help you'. Even if that results in 'well, I can't move to Linux', it plants the seed so the afflicted has the knowledge to make different choice at some future opportunity.
Luka Rubinjoni@munin Someone with better computer skills should code a program that either disables screen capture, or botches the recorded data (as far as I understand, it's stored locally at this point). I can only offer a name for such program: Windows Dementia.
razze@munin so people don't have the agency to choose, but we can change closed source windows to not allow that? Confusing take :/
Annie@munin the energy spent on advertising Linux in these situations should be spent improving it and the market in general to make it a more practical choice.
Then you run into the asshole greybeards who bemoan Windows dominance but absolutely rage at anything that would actually close the gap.
Then you run into the asshole greybeards who bemoan Windows dominance but absolutely rage at anything that would actually close the gap.
Site Reliability Enby🏳️⚧️🏁🔦📈🐺👗😷@anniethebruce @munin What are these things that would close a gap, exactly?
If you say Unity I am going to scream.
@SiteRelEnby @munin Basically anything that makes it easier on newbies I see a lot of rage over.
It's more vocal minority than widespread issue, but a vocal minority can cause problems far beyond what their size would suggest.
As for Unity... I wouldn't have an issue with that but certainly doesn't need to be a priority, certainly not community wide. If someone wants to do something with it I don't really care though.
It's more vocal minority than widespread issue, but a vocal minority can cause problems far beyond what their size would suggest.
As for Unity... I wouldn't have an issue with that but certainly doesn't need to be a priority, certainly not community wide. If someone wants to do something with it I don't really care though.
@anniethebruce @munin Fair in some cases then, but not when it just degrades the experience as a whole, e.g. having to jump through a load of hoops to get a proper Firefox install on Ubuntu because Snap is so shit...
@SiteRelEnby @munin Snap bullshit is why I'm now on Debian.
The concept of snaps, ok, cool, get multiple container platforms out there and see which approach is best in the real world. But the reality of snaps has not impressed me.
The concept of snaps, ok, cool, get multiple container platforms out there and see which approach is best in the real world. But the reality of snaps has not impressed me.
Tim Lavoie@munin The structural unsafety is indeed terrible, and absolutely needs to be called out.
On the other hand, I think relatively few people even have awareness that there *might* be a choice that they can make. Maybe they ask, and the answer is still no. Maybe, just maybe, the awareness leads to being able to make a constructive choice.
Pointing out possible alternatives is still useful.
No.
Knowledge that alternatives theoretically exist is not helpful when a victim does not have the agency to apply that change.
Systemic unsafety -cannot- be addressed by individual choice, because individual choice can be coerced or prevented.
Unsafe infrastructure is not fit for purpose.
Roberto von Archimboldi@munin @tim_lavoie I can't disagree that unsafe infrastructure is the issue but
1. Microsoft doesn't care and I don't see how naming the problem will be sufficient to get the OS changed
2. The abuse victim in the mooted scenario still needs the technical know how to use third party tools to prevent her technically savvy abuser doing the same thing via his own third party program
Given that, I'm not convinced there is any practical difference between advocating Microsoft roll back their system choices and abuse victims learn how to do whatever they would have to do to protect themselves from third party tools (being a total computer ignoramus I can't even describe it) and learning to install some user friendly version of Linux
I do agree that the problem is a systemic one and so needs Microsoft to change course. I just don't get the hostility to people willing to help others embrace alternatives.
the Amygdalai Lama
Dane 🌎🖖✌️☮️⚛️☸️🕉️@munin Some people are stuck in an MS environment, which sucks. No disparagement here.
I had several people pop up saying "use linux instead" and decided to textually indicate why that was not acceptable.
@munin It's like when I voice my concerns (and that's a nice way of putting it) about the direction my state of residence is taking, and somebody says "well....move."
I'm like cool. Is there a job with the same rate of pay, city government benefits, and willing to hire a 57 year old with very arthritic knees magically waiting for me? WELL?!
I'm like cool. Is there a job with the same rate of pay, city government benefits, and willing to hire a 57 year old with very arthritic knees magically waiting for me? WELL?!
Yeah. Been chewing on how to communicate "personal choice cannot fix structural unsafety" effectively.
@munin @TheLastOfHisName Also, "the linux experience" is still far, far away from the convenience of using Windows or Apple products. It's like the difference between driving a Toyota, and driving some Mad Max style kludge. Yeah, the kludge looks cool, some kludges are way better than Toyotas (while some just aren't), if you know what you are doing you can kludge up some vehicle that's ideally fit for purpose. But for people that just need to get from point A to B and back, Toyota is reasonable.
Isaac Freeman@munin For many people, being advised to use Linux is about as helpful as being advised to live in a yurt.
It's not that they can't see the advantages of living in a yurt. They may even find the yurt-dwelling lifestyle intriguing. But they can't see how they would ever be able to rearrange their life such that a yurt is an option.
So, please read upthread for context: this is about domestic violence situations, where the persons in question may not be able to change the OS of a computer.
@munin Understood. I meant to express agreement with you that “Use Linux” isn't an acceptable response. As you say, people don't all get to choose what OS they use, in the same way that they don't get to choose whether to live in an apartment or a yurt.
I appreciate that it's a bit of a tangent from your main point in the rest of the thread, which I also agree with.
@isaacfreeman @munin Living in a yurt is great analogy, thanks!
@isaacfreeman @munin I made a similar analogy with Toyotas and Mad Max style kludges on wheels. Yes, I live my 21st century steppe warrior lifestyle, living in a yurt and migrating in an uhholy union of Unimog, Beetle and Iveco that runs exclusively on used deepfryer oil (in other words, not only I run linux on desktop, i opted for a rolling release). But that's not the universal solution to housing and transport.
nonlinear@munin yup. Presenting systemic issues as individual ones is neoliberal mindset.
arclight@munin This needs to be laser-engraved on a baseball bat and used to percussively educate that miserable fraction of Linux users that keep saying "jUsT uSe LiNuX" as if that was ever a universal solution to anything. I've been a mostly happy Linux user since around 1994 and I cannot tell you the number of times I've wanted to shove obtuse evangelistas into traffic over this. Christ, they're awful.
They make up all kinds of 'but awareness of options' excuses but it's ultimately variously flavored victim blaming and I'm not at all interested in arguing with their choice to enable abusive behaviors.
sadmac356@arclight yeah I can understand a well intentioned "hey I've had good luck with switching to Linux, is that something you might be willing to consider trying?" but if one gets pushy about how it'll totally solve all my problems that I never actually had then I want to smack them repeatedly with a rolled up newspaper while asking them exactly what points they think they're making
mav 
@munin
If we can't laugh at horrors even a little, then we're all going to go crazy.
It's not a _good_ argument, but then, neither is anything else; Microsoft will do whatever they're going to do, and they'll probably ignore the abuse potential of their tech because, well, *gestures at the entire history of computing so far*
Maybe they'll back off, maybe they won't, but there's a very real chance we will be stuck here doing harm reduction. As we always are. And we should be prepared to do it as well as we can.
infosec zathras@mav @munin @0xabad1dea I'm getting real tired of being stuck with doing harm reduction all the time.
Krupo@mav @0xabad1dea like how they got slapped down with antitrust penalties 20-25 years ago over their abusive treatment of Windows users and Explorer.
Now they're doing it all over again with Win 11 and Edge... They really should be dragged into court over that again.
xsk@munin @gsuberland Honestly believe that the reason you get so many „use X option“ answers is because people focus on the technical part of the recall discussion. Even MS themselves don’t get it…
There is no option or freedom of choice under an abusing relationship, any kind of it, even the thought of that makes you tremor.
On top of that, MS is completely tone deaf on even more, real issues with this „feature“ ( that noone asked for ). Sharing the computer in the same household that is struggling financially and has no knowledge of how to use User profiles, The very Common „let me remote connect to your PC dear lady so we can fix my wrongly sent money to you for MS customer support“ call scams, even TSA asking you to open the laptop in front of them and provide the password or else… EVERYTHING you have done in the past ( three months ? ) will be on the plate for people to take and use against you, and no, there is no such thing as global ethical values.
All of those are very common scenarios that noone in MS prioritises over ROI in AI and are indicative of how tech companies function, they are not there anymore to provide a tool to improve your life with, but act both as a (re)marketing device and a will enforcement one…
I wish i had an answer but i have none at this point, i feel depressed about how we, even now in 2024, seem to have such a low priority on our society needs compared to profit.
gkrnours@munin on the other hand, if enough people switch to linux, this might scare microsoft away from IA.
KatieVM@munin (Though earnestly, if one is able to abandon ship for Linux, it would be a reasonable response to Microsoft's BS, and I encourage it, while acknowledging it isn't always an option and should not be necessary in the first place.)
dibi58countries that chose us oss are looking for troubles ...
Serena is moving to @@munin > "Use Linux" is not an appropriate response.
true. telling people to wholesale switch their operating system and therefore computing workflow is an extreme instruction. A better suggestion is, ”consider a migration to Linux". It's more empathetic while still offering advice. It also encourages a person to do their research before jumping in
true. telling people to wholesale switch their operating system and therefore computing workflow is an extreme instruction. A better suggestion is, ”consider a migration to Linux". It's more empathetic while still offering advice. It also encourages a person to do their research before jumping in
petrosAlright.
Use Linux if you can.
I understand that not everybody can use it but it is certainly the best advice.
It is saying: Stop the water where it's leaking.
It is easier than cleaning up the mess after you're flooded.
karlggest@munin But really most of times people have that agency. People can use Linux in the same way they use Windows or Mac, or even Android.
Kevin Karhan 
@munin I disagree to some extent...
NO NAMEFor those who must use Windows 11 - here is how to disable Recall:
- Open a command prompt as Administrator (Local Admin should do)
- Type: Dism /Online /Disable-Feature /FeatureName:Recall
Disclaimer
Do understand and Please Read - This may hinder some features of the new file explorer. Because Microsoft never learns.
The Doctor
elle@jeff @munin
I use Directory Opus, xplorer² is pretty good too. I've heard of xyplorer but not tried it, and there's another that's in pre-release that looks really good but I can't remember the name
edit: I found it! it's been released too - https://files.community/
dugglebutt@munin I never actually loved Linux. It’s fine, I guess, but it has a matter of issues.
Petra@munin it would be impossible to, given that many people will still be using a single user on the family computer, share laptop passwords etc - and a victim suggesting they and their partner change this Will Not Go Well
Exactly. No amount of individual "choice" matters when the structural situation is comprehensively unsafe.
@munin Corporate legal will shit themselves^W^Whave a field day with this.
I'm genuinely curious to hear from corp lawyers, tbh. I have an -idea- about what they'd say, but I would genuinely value that point of view for this.
@munin Yeah, I don't have any that deal in corporate law to refer to, unfortunately.
But given the corp infosuck policy training I have to go through every year, I'm pretty certain my people would be screaming holy hell about discovery. Hell, I'm surprised they haven't disabled the Spotlight feature on my Mac, or whatever the Windows equivalent is.
Oh hells, I hadn't even gotten to considering the 'discovery' threat surface to this. Yowza, that's gonna be spicy as fuck.
@munin Ya think, DiNozzo? 🤣
Discovery was the third thing that came to mind, after "advertising" and "AI training for *redacted* purposes".
In fairness, my situation's a lot more compliance and malware research flavored, and the DV implications have me -extremely- shook given some past context.
But that's what friends are for, to give different points of view.
@munin Like you not thinking discovery, I hadn't thought of DV implications. Sweet Tester.
Maybe I should take every computing device newer than my 40-year-old pocket calculator out into the driveway and set it on fire now.
Just to be on the safe side.
Problem is, can't really participate in society -without- modern information processing devices - try getting your tax info from the IRS, for example.
@munin Dude, we both hang in the same circles of people.
Remind me again how participating in society any more is a good idea? 🤣