#jerrybase is moving to the model that Deadbase used for the Drum and Space section of #gratefuldead shows.
They called it Drumz, we are going to call it "Drums and Space". Same thing though.
If you want to get a preview of what this will look like, we've deployed it to our test site.
https://test.jerrybase.com/songs/1693
Once we get it to the real site we will clean it up a bit, but you get the picture.
From our FAQ...
@bourgwick The problem has 2 parts:
1) Whether we give a distinct name to this suite.
2) What that name should be.
I am more attached to part 1, and some of my reasoning is utilitarian. We have many, many setlists where this portion of the show is just listed as Drums > Space, and there is a bunch of variation that we are missing, which we do not want to take the time to detail and perhaps invent new terms to represent, although we admit this would be a better solution. [1/2]
@bourgwick [2/2] As well (still on part 1) we are recognizing that this entity is it's own beast. The percussion portion was NOT similar to other Drum solos listed in setlists from the early 70's, and likewise with the Space section.
On part 2, I care way less. The underlying system knows this section as song 1693. We can flip flop on the name as much as we want.
@bourgwick I have a feeling I am not going to convince you ;)
As far as things with ids being "borg-like", well sorry, most objects represented by software have ids. On official releases sure they've always been broken out, but the setlist community has not always done that. Deadbase handled this just as I am proposing, perhaps the name was funky, but I did not find it confusing.
On imprecision, it is already there, we are not losing resolution here, just admitting it was never there.
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick I don't know how to reply in this particular machine (heads).
This is a great discussion, thank you both.
The ultimate goal is highly granular relational information capturing sequences of 1) people on 2) named "songs" playing 3) particular instruments for a measured duration. Obviously we'd need ways not to see all of that, but it'd live under the hood, visible for those who wish. 1/
We need to start training The Machine to understand just this. Once we start coding, teach It which parts are Mickey on world instrument #321 and all the rest, then set it off on the rest of the recordings.
In the meantime, we are on the slippery slope toward that. There are not enough human cycles in the mix right now to do it "right" in the sense above. So we have to put imprecise words around things, building-in error.
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick
3/
We are very close on this. Jesse wants to preserve "Drums" and "Space", linked in the typical post-1980 case through the guzinta: >
MJ wants to pin down the thingness of "Drums and Space", that discrete 1980ff construct. Partly this is because he sees a 1987 "Drums" 45 minutes into set II as not the same kind of thing as a "Drums" appearing inside a "That's It For The Other One", or in the middle of some 1973-1974 exploration.
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick
4/
And he sees a 1987 "Space" as different from "Space", truly open group improvisation without [fill in structural requirements not present], that we might hear in some truly out Dead jam from the 60s-70s.
If I undersatand him correctly.
Jesse, the problem with > is that we still have a draw a line for timing purposes. It's Theseus's Ship as each frontline player steps in to join the drummers.
That problem is *most* vexing in the entire GD oeuvre in the 1980ff "Drums and Space" sessions. There are like 1,500 shows on which, if we are serious about entering timings, we have to make that call.
Who wants to spend their lives doing that?
And I really do ask this of this community: who wants to spend their lives doing that?
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick
6/
"Here's where we [air quotes]'trip'[/aq], kids."
Creating a little box to noodle in every night killed it for me. I may have had to go kick the hacky sack.
So, Jesse, I see your principled point. But words are *always* imprecise about stuff like this. It's a matter of taste. It's also a matter of practicality - the thorny issue of pinning the guzinta, which implies timing.
Imagine trying to time the entry of every player, the deployment of The Beam and all that. These are all things that happened inside a "Drums". Failure to code them in builds in error.
This is not directed at you, Jesse. I think all of us working at the level that JB and you are at want to invite others into to crowd source the work. There's so much great stuff to do.
Let's have at it!
@bourgwick Thanks for your thoughts @FateMusic, many excellent points, but timings was not one of my motivations. And having a "higher level object" to have it both ways is probably not in the cards.
Perhaps we should just "leave it be" since there is not consensus. I consider these listings as wrong, so it bothers me, and I do not have time to fix it. But no one else is complaining, so I guess it doesn't matter anyway.
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick
8/
To finish my thought - can we keep "Drums > Space" as we have it, but create a higher level object called "Drums and Space", per the current proposal? Hide it from view but have it in the data? That would allows folks to do the easier work of coding when "Drums and Space" begins and ends, leaving the pinning of the guzinta (in time) to another day.
I dunno.
/fin
I think we are trying to build toward song timings. That's the technical imperative. And I think the semantics respond to our technical limitations, specifically as it relates to the difficulty and ptain involved in separately timing "Drums" and "Space". "Drums and Space" is much more easily done. It's a second-best solution.
@InstituteJerry @bourgwick I would offer more to the conversation but I’m not sure I can offer more than Jesse has. That said, both Drums and Space exist not just as a sequence but also individually throughout the canon of Grateful Dead. I was always a liberal labeller on my tapes.
But I do recognize, as a former DBA, that increased complexity requires increased data review. So I will add that I greatly appreciate your efforts even when I don’t agree.
Did you say otdispace?
I thought I smelled that distinctive odor of a hot circuitboard.
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