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EPA earmarks $3 billion to replace lead pipes nationwide

https://lemmy.world/post/14977982

EPA earmarks $3 billion to replace lead pipes nationwide - Lemmy.World

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said it will spend $3 billion to help states and territories identify and replace lead water pipes. “The science is clear, there is no safe level of lead exposure, and the primary source of harmful exposure in drinking water is through lead pipes,” EPA Administrator Michael Regan [https://www.epa.gov/aboutepa/epa-administrator] said, announcing the funding Thursday in an agency news release. Lead poses serious health risks and can cause irreversible brain damage in children. The funding announced Thursday is part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which President Joe Biden signed into law in 2021. It sets aside $15 billion overall to identify and replace lead pipes.

May 3, 2024 at 12:04pmWeb
Show threadFlying SquidMay 3, 2024

That sounds like a lot. It isn’t. It’s a drop in the bucket. So is the $15 billion.

After conducting a survey of these lead pipes in the United States, NRDC estimates that there is a range of 9.7 million to 12.8 million pipes that are, or may be, lead, spread across all 50 states, including those that claim to have none.

nrdc.org/…/lead-pipes-are-widespread-and-used-eve…

No way is $15 billion going to be enough to dig up and replace that much lead piping.

Finding Lead Water Pipes: New NRDC Map Shows the Hot Spots in Every State

Federal and state governments acknowledge the widespread presence of lead pipes throughout the country—NRDC’s new map reveals where they are. The EPA, states, and cities must act now to solve this problem. 

Show threadXhieronMay 3, 2024
Probably not, but it sure beats $0.
Show threadFlying SquidMay 3, 2024
I’m not trying to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but this is being sold as a cure when it’s a band-aid.
Show threadstemboltsMay 3, 2024

True, wish they’d add, “This will fix approximately x% of pipes across the nation!”

But I know why they can’t do that, “politics”, because there is a considerable amount of people who would say, 5/10/15%! That’s awful, I’m voting for the guy who founded the lead pacifier company! He’s tall!

But… when you consider :
1, We consider cave people to be stupid
2, Not enough time has passed for the brain to evolve since we were cave people

It makes a bit more sense, we truly are standing on the shoulders of giants. Or in other words, humans are real ducking dumb. We’re all cave people.

Show threadBuckshotMay 3, 2024
Cave people didn’t have lead poisoning either
Show threadZombiFrancisMay 4, 2024

The main thing it is not a federal task force or anything, so it will be funding given to state and local governments that have already failed or even outright refused to replace lead pipes.

Like for example: DeSantis will replace pipes in certain areas but will undoubtedly only identify them in others.

Show threadFlying SquidMay 4, 2024
Guess which areas won’t be getting them replaced first if at all in terms of demographics…
Show threadsub_ubiMay 3, 2024
That kind of money is reserved for a month of bombing, sorry
Show threadbluGillMay 3, 2024

They don't have to be dug up. The first step is chemistry - Flint was fine with lead pipes until they switch water sources to something with a different composition (ph I think - but there are other factors and we should get expert chemists to speak here not laypeople like us). Anywhere that lead pipes exist we need monitoring to ensure that the water doesn't dissolve lead, once we have that in place the pipes don't leach much lead and we can do a slower replacement when the pipes need to be replaced anyway.

We also have technology to put a plastic liner in existing pipes for much less than digging the pipes up. It doesn't work for all situations, but when it does is a lot cheaper and should be investigated for any pipe that is expected to last a long time.

Show threadPulptasticMay 3, 2024
Even with that there is still a nonzero amount of lead in the water. Source: my city that does exactly that and the test results they publish.
Show threadfine_sandy_bottomMay 4, 2024

I hate this.

  • “This shit is terrible. Fixing it is going to cost an astronomical amount but it’s just got to get done.”
  • “Woah woah woah. Why don’t we investigate a range of potential options that will mitigate the harm caused by the problem.”

You already know just from the tone that fuck all is going to happen.

The answer is… do both. Fix the problem while finding ways to mitigate costs while ensuring the problem gets fixed.

Show threadcatch22May 4, 2024

brookings.edu/…/what-would-it-cost-to-replace-all…

From the article:

How much would it cost to get lead out of the U.S.’s drinking water? A back-of-the-envelope calculation based on EPA’s estimate of average replacement cost per line ($4,700) and assumption of 6 to 10 million lead service lines across the country suggests the cost could range from $28 billion to $47 billion, putting Biden’s originally-proposed $45 billion near the top of that range—but the $15 billion legislated well below it.

Seems like just a drop in the bucket! HAHAHA, ha… ehh…

What would it cost to replace all the nation’s lead water pipes?

The American Jobs Plan's $45 billion to replace lead pipes and service lines across the U.S. would be the federal government’s most ambitious effort on this front to date—and research suggests that the public health and economic benefits of doing so are extensive.

Brookings
Show threadfine_sandy_bottomMay 4, 2024

I know you’re saying the $15b is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of fixing the problem, but it’s also a drop in the bucket compared to tax revenues right?

Like how much is bezos worth, can’t you guys just guillotine him and use the money to fix the pipes?

Show threadFlying SquidMay 4, 2024
I’d rather just tax him a whole lot than continue our proud tradition of state murder. We already do it to possibly innocent death row prisoners.
Show threadcheese_greaterMay 3, 2024
Can’t wait to see the 'Pubs speak and vote out against this. “We like 'em fine”
Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024

Can’t wait for November to laugh at all the crying libturd memes.

#Trump Nation

Show threadOlhonestjimMay 3, 2024
Ooooh look at you telling the same joke over and over again. That’s hilaaaaarious!
Show threadZombiFrancisMay 4, 2024
I think Republicans will accept the money just fine. Since it is for identifying and replacing lead pipes: they can easily do one and not the other. And they’ll certainly be selective over which communities get addressed.
Show threadapfelwoiSchoppenMay 3, 2024
Start with Flint.
Show threadIgloojoeMay 3, 2024
They have been. For years now. Do cities where it hasnt turned into a disaster before it does.
Show threadPulptasticMay 3, 2024
Need to do both tbh
Show threadspamfajitasMay 3, 2024

The vast majority of Flint pipes have been replaced and they’ve been well below EPA requirements for years now. Pretty much all that’s left are a ton of criminal and civil proceedings, roughly 3% of residential pipelines that require the approval of the owner to replace, and earning back the trust of the residents.

cityofflint.com/progress-report-on-flint-water

Progress Report on Flint Water - City of Flint

Watch the video to learn about Flint’s water infrastructure: Information on Flint’s water quality, construction project status updates, financial reports, public comment opportunities and meeting notices may be found below as part of Mayor Sheldon Neeley’s commitment to transparency in keeping residents and businesses informed on progress around the city’s multi-million-dollar water infrastructure projects.

City of Flint
Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024

Welcome to the Future.

  • The year the USA finally decided to stop using poisonous infrastructure to carry their water.

    Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024

    Can’t wait for November to laugh at all the crying libturd memes.

    #Trump Nation

    Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024

    What do you think you get from having a remarkably unintelligent rapist fascist-wannabe traitor as your president?

    Do you identify with those traits?

    Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024

    Yawn. Stay salty.

    #Trump Nation

    Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024

    Dumps already lost 4 years ago and he’s in a far worse position than he was 4 years ago.

    Stay salty.

    Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024

    Good times ahead. Try that in a small town.

    #Trump Nation

    Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024

    Haha, I agree.

    I live In a tiny town, where do you think I got all my insight into conservative cowardice?

    Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024
    Then you should know daddy Trump is going to win for sure.
    Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024

    That guy who lost already and is now in a far worse position?

    Doubt it.

    Suckle that teat, though.

    Show threadUncleLuckMay 3, 2024
    Cope.
    Show threadVarykMay 3, 2024
    Thriving.
    Show threadOlhonestjimMay 3, 2024
    It must be very fulfilling to laugh forever at the only joke you’ve got.
    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024

    With the exception of some moronic fiscal managers in Flint, it has been solved since the 90s. The Lead and Copper rule dates to the early 90s and required regular testing and action. Most utilities started adjusting PH and adding a lead corrosion inhibitor called orthophosphate. That dropped lead levels to zero most places.

    Flint didn’t do that, so here we are. Also worth noting it was banned for new connections in 1986, though many cities banned it decades earlier. My own city banned lead in 1954, but because we’re an old city, we have 140,000 still out there. That’s over $1 billion (probably twice that by the time we’re done) for just my one city alone. Getting rid of lead will take even more money than this.

    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    The problem is a little more widespread than just Flint. 9% of American water pipes still have lead in them.

    Florida is leading the charge.

    www.usnews.com/…/states-with-the-most-lead-pipes

    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024
    But what I am saying is with proper treatment, the lead pipes are not a problem. Lead paint is a far larger issue for lead poisoning, but little is being done about that.
    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    There’s been multiple laws passed about lead paint. One is like called the lead paint act or something, hang on.

    Here it is, from 1992: epa.gov/…/residential-lead-based-paint-hazard-red…

    To reduce the hazard of lead-base paint.

    The issue is not that if the UD had different pipes then they have, then lead pipes wouod not be a problem.

    The issue is that almost 10% of the pipes in the US are still lead and no amount of lead is safe for human consumption, especially youth physiological development.

    Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992--Title X | US EPA

    Full text of Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction act of 1992 - Title Ten, including findings and definitions.

    US EPA
    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024

    And there has been laws and regulations passed on lead pipe, too. Lead levels have been monitored and action taken for decades. And considering there is still a ton of lead paint out there, your law didn’t do much.

    The issue is, there is not the contractors or materials to get it done. It costs ~$8,000 each now, and will only go up as utilities compete for those resources. We have an estimated 9.2 million lead pipes. The cost is likely to be over $100 billion. Even with $15b from the infrastructure law and this $3b, this is massively underfunded.

    It’s also a stupid way of funding. Most of these lead pipes are attached to old water mains. When you replace the main, you also replace the connections. For a small marginal cost, you could also replace the old water main. But the EPA doesn’t allow these funds to be spent that way, and as I said, they are not providing enough money anyway. So we will be left with new connections on old, failing water mains. Stupid.

    And in 15 years and lead pipe is gone, people will still blame water while ignoring the lead paint homeowners and landlords STILL have not removed.

    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    You are confused.

    This lead paint, hazard reduction law was not my law. It was passed by the 102nd Congress.

    Your further complaint is that this measure will not solve all of the problem?

    Is your implication that we should not fix any lead pipes because there is a potential that not all lead pipes can be fixed simultaneously?

    I don’t know if this is going to blow your mind, but even if Congress provided as much money as you personally want to devote to this problem that you said doesn’t matter, there would still be a timeline between the first pipe being replaced or refitted versus the last pipe being replaced or refitted.

    Even if they went with your plan, which I’m unaware has been considered, it still wouldn’t happen instantaneously.

    You may have to manage your expectations and base your complaints on what is actually happening rather than what could possibly go wrong if something that is not happening does happen.

    This is the same conservative argument against Green energy and replacing the infrastructure in the United States, or the funds Biden has provided for lgbtq legal allocation.

    Yes, biden haven’t provided a gazillion dollars for civil rights movements to access, but Biden is providing significant funding for civil rights movements.

    Perfect is the enemy of good, especially if your definition of perfect is based on your individual guesstimates.

    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024

    No, my thought is we need to do it at a reasonable deliberate pace that also replaces the failing cast iron water mains. 10 years is far too tight a timeline without massive costs and major employee stress. This simply isn’t even a good plan, it’s knee jerk reaction.

    And I can tell you, I am a longtime engineer for a water company. I am getting thrown a ton of extra work for no additional compensation. We’ve seen massive departures to other sectors from my fellow fed up employees.

    And frankly I’m upset that lead paint is off the hook. No mandate to completely remove it. No massive fines for failing to get rid of that. And in my city, that’s the actual cause of lead poisoning.

    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    Your tree is more important to you personally than the forest, but that isn’t a a valid reason to argue against positive and necessary infrastructure refurbishment.

    Of course you are right to be angry that there hasn’t been a comparable current funding measure passed for lead paint for your city yet, but that doesn’t take anything away from the good that replacing lead pipes will do.

    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024
    And you ignore all the negatives of this plan because there are positives, so long as someone else does the work and someone else pays for it (at least until you get pissed your water bill went up 200% because federal funding ran out). And I’m betting people will be mad when their 120 year old water main starts breaking constantly because we didn’t bother to replace it when we were digging up the street anyway.
    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    I’m not ignoring the negatives, I’m disregarding possible scenarios that you’re anecdotally hypothesizing could go wrong during a necessary investment in public health and safety that now has funding where it didn’t before.

    I’m suggesting you save your ire for the time something goes wrong instead of uselessly condemning an obviously positive step forward in necessary infrastructure refurbishment.

    You’re complaining about a necessary positive public measure because it doesn’t conform to what specifically you want.

    “Funding has been passed for new textbooks in schools!”

    “This is garbage, I want new protractors in schools! I like protractors!”

    “Okay Jerry fine, but it’s still nice that we have new textbooks. The old ones were riddled with mold and poisoning our children”.

    Maybe you should run for higher office, if you prefer to influence those decisions rather than implement the decisions made by the electorate and their representatives.

    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024
    No, it’s more like “we’re mandating you buy new textbooks to replace the moldy ones. Here is a check that only covers 20% of the costs. Oh, the ceiling of the school is also collapsing, but we won’t do anything about that. Nor will we fix the mold in the classroom that are also making the kids sick. But celebrate, new textbooks!”
    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    That’s completely inaccurate with what we’ve already covered:

    There’s been literally hundreds of billions devoted to the other infrastructure, the “ceiling” in your scenario you are incorrectly pretending is not funded, and multiple funding measures have already passed for decades about fixing “the mold” you’re talking about, lead paint.

    Also, if we assume at our peril that your guesstimate 20% is accurate, that is 20% fewer lead pipes poisoning people.

    You are still arguing against fixing 20% of the nation’s lead pipes in favor of…not doing anything.

    “You can only replace one out of five books? Then let’s not replace any of them”.

    Not a great argument.

    Show threadderf82May 4, 2024
    You are completely misrepresenting me. I’m done
    Show threadVarykMay 4, 2024

    I’m directly responding to your inaccuracies with quotes from your in context and responding to them with facts.

    That is not misrepresentation.

    Show threadBruceTwarzenMay 3, 2024
    That's a lot of cash, wouldn't you rather carpet bomb brown people for a minute?
    Show threadcybersandwichMay 3, 2024
    Now now now. We can do both thank you very much.
    Show threadgoferking (he/him)May 4, 2024
    Not according to the GOP sadly
    Show threaddanekraeMay 3, 2024
    That is some of the best news for america in a very long time. Many people won’t realize this though, you know, because of the lead…
    Show threadvenusaurMay 3, 2024
    What are they replacing them with?
    Show threaddanekraeMay 3, 2024
    Asbestos of course…
    Show threadvenusaurMay 3, 2024
    checks out
    Show threadJakeroxsMay 4, 2024
    Bestos
    Show threadjumpinjesusMay 4, 2024
    Unleaded Supreme
    Show threadvenusaurMay 4, 2024
    Damn. I was hoping e85.
    Show threadGigasserMay 4, 2024
    I’m guessing either copper, PVC, or CPVC. The worry about PVC and CPVC is micro plastics, but I think that lead is probably more harmful then micro plastics anyway.
    Show threadvenusaurMay 4, 2024
    For sure. Copper is expensive. I imagine they’ll go with plastics.