Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)
It's really sad that what people got from Dark Souls is "games that make you git gud are better" and not "intentionally designed friction in games greatly heightens immersion"
Apr 3, 2024 at 7:18amWeb
Show threadj_bertolottiApr 3, 2024
@eniko As a rule the final user is very good at deciding if something works or not, but very bad at pinpointing how or why.
You would just hope that game designers were a bit better than the average user at it.
Show threadSatan - PaulApr 3, 2024
@eniko ok, counterpoint, I love cheating at games :3
Show threadEniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Apr 3, 2024
@Satanic_catboy im not sure how that counters what i said >_>
Show thread0x0961hApr 3, 2024
@eniko The only thing I got from Dark Souls is that I can make super hardcore game and then gaslight everyone into thinking that there is no need in difficulties in games because, look, someone on YT completed this game blindfolded on bananas while flying from Australia to Austria hanging upside down the helicopter.
Show threadVilhelmMattsonApr 3, 2024
@eniko a few of them seem to just have internalised "X is good when FromSoft does it, but bad when anyone else does" for most values of X. Rather than actually looking at what something is doing and the intent for doing it.
Show threadAlex Celeste, Princess Consort of BurnoutApr 3, 2024

@VilhelmMattson @eniko

developers who aren't FromSoft just need to git gud

Show threadSabandijoApr 3, 2024

@eniko

I'll add developers to the bunch.

I love soulslike games, but there are so many games that go "hardcore" in difficulty that all they create are annoying games.

I recently uninstalled Lords of the fallen just before beating it. It kept throwing the same (extremely annoying) enemies in bunches, once and again. It was not a matter of being alert, but of cheesing encounters and minmaxing.

No variety, just difficulty for the sake of it.

Wrong by my book.

Show threadEniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Apr 3, 2024
@sabandijo to be clear, "people" in my original post includes both developers and gamers >_>
Show threadAbyApr 3, 2024
@eniko - ironically, I've found the Bloodborne subreddit to be one of the most wholesome places online because of people helping each other instead of just being all "git gud".
Show threadBiggles 20X6!Apr 3, 2024

@aby @eniko it's also frustrating that they're using souls-like games for their arguments.
The OG coin-op arcade games were god-tier hard compared to modern games, because the goal was to drain your pockets as you mastered pixel perfect split second timings, and a failure reset *all*your progress, not just to the last camp fire.

Battletoads 3 was the benchmark on consoles, but even it paled compared to Spy Hunter

Show threadAlistair HuttonApr 3, 2024
@eniko the irony is that Dark Souls did such an incredible job of _pretending_ to be a super difficult game that people think it _is_ a super difficult game and as a result have taken completely the wrong design lessons from it.
Show threadSarahApr 3, 2024
@eniko I'm not a friction enjoyer myself. When I experience friction I am aware that it was an intentional decision to waste my time
Show threadMetal Mutton 🤖🐏Apr 3, 2024
@eniko would this also apply to Dragons Dogma 2? I've heard it has its share of controversial elements (not counting the microtransactions) which one group defends for the sake of immersion and not-handholding but others hate for time-wasting and being inaccessible or even unfun.
Show threadEniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Apr 3, 2024
@SteelWool i haven't played it so i don't feel confident answering that
Show threadsykora Apr 3, 2024
@eniko Having never played Dark Souls, do you have any examples? This is something I've thought about before and I'd be curious to learn more about it
Show threadTicalApr 10, 2024

@eniko The worst part about discussing this online is all the gamers:tm: will kick into "git gud" mode the moment you criticize Miyazaki for anything even though there are SEVERAL legitimate gripes with the game.

If any other dev did such things (and they did, The Surge and Lords of the Fallen are great examples) they would be (correctly) skewered for it.

Show threadTicalApr 10, 2024

@eniko Miyazaki actively uses the limitations of the game engine against the player in his games. He puts the swamps in the game knowing damn well that those areas of the game perform poorly in the engine that they use. Im referring to the following:

World 5 in Demons Souls, Blighttown in DkS1, The pits in DkS2, Farron's keep in DkS 3, The MANY swamp areas in Elden Ring

Show threadTicalApr 10, 2024

@eniko Framerate takes noticable dips in those areas (especially at 1080p or higher). Compounding this, enemies and their AI have priority over player inputs.

You see an attack coming, there are a bunch of effects onscreen that drop framerate, you roll to avoid the attack, The attack lands and you roll afterward up to a full 2 secs after you pressed the button to roll. Nameless King in DkS3 was unplayable at release unless you dropped to 720p even if you had a gtx980 at the time. "git gud"