Zach Leatherman(inspired by a conversation with @avidlarge)
David Large@zachleat It needs more divs Zach. Just divs all the way down.
@avidlarge I too, like turtles
Aral Balkan
Andrew Feeney@zachleat Honestly this fine. I can read that code. I can find what I need to edit it quickly and easily. It’s right next to the markup it is coupled to. I can predict exactly what my changes will do and what code will be affected. I can rest easy knowing I haven’t broken something somewhere else. I have this wrapped in a component for easy reuse.
@zachleat I agree it’s ugly, but honestly, html is generally pretty ugly. I’m going to get my job done more easily and sleep better at night so that’s a win in my book. And yes, I do know CSS. YMMV.
Mike McCaffrey 
@andrewfeeney @zachleat I'm sorry that life has hurt you so much that this seems like an acceptable state of affairs.
@mikemccaffrey @zachleat Is my trauma that obvious?
@andrewfeeney @mikemccaffrey time for all of us to join group therapy folks, pick your time on my calendly 😅
nrk@andrewfeeney disagree about html being "pretty ugly". Pretty ugly html is a consequence of DOM being generated by Javascript or no-code builders.
With custom elements, it is possible to achieve neat looking html with semantic elements
With custom elements, it is possible to achieve neat looking html with semantic elements
@andrewfeeney how many stars out of 5 is a “this is fine” rating
@zachleat 4/5. Show me 5/5 and I’ll enthusiastically embrace it.
@zachleat Actually make that 3/5. 4/5 would be not ugly piles of classes concatenated in a string. 5/5 would be requires no external dependencies to work with (I.e. part of the web standards spec).
@andrewfeeney I agree with 3/5!
Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊)@andrewfeeney @zachleat Well I can't read it. 🤷🏻♂️
I'll happily cop to being cognitively impared so that utility-classes-gone-wild can be seen as an accessibility violation. If all of this were in a co-located <style> tag as vanilla CSS, I could read that easily. 😊
@jaredwhite @zachleat Yes, I agree it’s not perfect. Accessibility is certainly a valid concern that I have little insight into and I am not surprised to hear that Tailwind is wanting in this regard.
sofia ☮️🏴@andrewfeeney @zachleat i bet you never tried writing a userstyle for nonsense html like this 😛.
Mauve 👁💜@sofia @andrewfeeney @zachleat My hot take: More apps / pages should be constrained to system/user styles. 😈 As much as I love that designers can be employed it's so expensive to do and maintain and users end up being less empowered, especially if they have accessibility needs. I have such a hard time reading sites with fancy designs 😭 RSS was peak content consumption tbh.
@andrewfeeney it markups like this work for you, then good for you. But I'm not accustomed to process individual "variables" of code. Utility classes in markup just increase cognitive overload for me
cuan_knaggs@andrewfeeney then simplify the build and deployment by just using inline styles @zachleat
Cory 
@zachleat how am i supposed to copy and paste that
Matthew Martin@mistersql technically accurate and accurate to etiquette too 😅
Mike Aparicio@zachleat How’d you get this slide from my CSS talk? 😂
@peruvianidol check your stream, mike—it’s still broadcasting
Larry MasonDamn! That doesn't look like COBOL at all.
Magitism@zachleat I need a gif of Tim Berners-Lee turning towards the camera crying.
Jeremy Bunting@zachleat tailwind + LLMs would be a mllm scheme, brilliant
OmnivoreYou spelled "Hello World" wrong.
PetterOfCats@zachleat Tailwind is the second worst.
@PetterOfCats haha this reminds me that quote: “capitalism: The worst economic system, except for all the others”
@zachleat This toot needs a content warning. I am getting increasingly agitated just looking at all the utility classes.
I can just imagine the client asking message sections to have a slate 800 background instead of 900 and having to find and change it in dozens of files.
@zachleat markup pollution is thing
Alex@zachleat tailwind momentado
Lippe@zachleat Where do you get to when you click on that inner div? It sure is a button, isn't it?!
@Lippe the tag says <div> so yes it is a button
catraxx 
@zachleat oh no
Bruce Taylor@zachleat - My eyes! 🫣
thurti@zachleat When did this actually start, that developers here have become so passive aggressive and condescending towards the work of other developers. I thought it was just a twitter thing.
@thurti I think there is a lot to unpack here and I don’t go into making this joke without self awareness of what’s happening.
But I would ask: when did tooling tribalism become so that we can’t critique code? That a mere lighthearted humorous critique of code is a personal attack?
Finally the thing I always try to evaluate before making a joke like this: is it punching down? And no, I would very strongly argue that it is not.
@zachleat Sorry for being passive aggressive myself, I didn't mean to get personal. We should definitely criticize code. And there is a lot to criticize in this example.
I just got the feeling from reading the comments that all the tailwind and js bashing is becoming a cult itself.
@thurti no worries!
Yeah, I can see that criticism too. I have thought about it a lot. It’s easy to dismiss the criticism as a Nickleback style level-of-popularity pushback, but I think it goes deeper.
I think Tailwind in particular receives a lot of deserved criticism because they go pretty headstrong in their marketing almost to the point of being anti-CSS—specifically the line “best practices don’t work” that’s been on their home page for many years.
Henry Bley-Vroman@thurti thanks for saying this. @zachleat given the last month's widely read anti-Tw articles I see only "this tool is bad". What's the critique? I see an inexpert CSS author, unnecessary height styles, and not using Prettier. But I'm confident the joke isn't "this person is passionate but a junior".
@olets @zachleat some valid points of criticism imo https://nuejs.org/blog/tailwind-misinformation-engine/
@thurti @zachleat Tailwind bashing is interesting. As an experienced CSS author Tailwind fan it's easy to spot which anti takes are likely written by people who haven't spent time with it, because I and everyone I know who's gotten to know it was a hater first, had the same opinions, and found they didn't hold up (some are still anti for other reasons) 1/2
@thurti @zachleat Good that not everyone uses/likes it. My Tailwind conversion changed how I see takes like that, about Tailwind or other tools. Dragging tells people who don't have personal experience with it to look down on people who like it, and sets them up for seeing "people who like this are wrong" daily. In retrospect I've uncritically picked up plenty of dev opinions that way, and probably passed them on to juniors. Maybe Drupal is good 🤯 2/2
Dana@zachleat gonna tell my kids this is eleventy
@superterrific I deserve this
Matthias Ott@superterrific @zachleat the documentation button
@matthiasott @superterrific dark:how-dare-[you]