MicroWaveMar 13, 2024

Trans youth will no longer be prescribed puberty blockers, NHS England says

https://lemmy.world/post/13067428

Trans youth will no longer be prescribed puberty blockers, NHS England says - Lemmy.World

Trans youth will no longer be prescribed puberty blockers at NHS England gender identity clinics in a new “blow” to gender-affirming healthcare. Puberty blockers are a type of medicine that prevent puberty from starting by blocking the hormones – like testosterone and oestrogen – that lead to puberty-related changes in the body. In the case of trans youth, this can delay unwanted physical changes like menstruation, breast growth, voice changes or facial hair growth. On Tuesday (12 March), NHS England confirmed the medicine, which has been described as “life-saving” medical care for trans youth, will only be available to young people as part of clinical research trials. The government described the move as a “landmark decision”, Sky News reported. It believed such a move is in the “best interests of the child”.

Show threadTh4tGuyIIMar 13, 2024

God damn Tories. What do they know about “best interests of the child” that a doctor doesn't already know? Less than nothing is the answer.

If a young person is suffering from gender dysmorphia to the point of considering gender affirmation procedures, then I think it'd be in their best interest to not exacerbate that condition by delaying the onset of puberty via puberty blockers until they're at the age where that can legally consent to such procedures.

Even if they eventually decide not to undergo those procedures, all you habr to do is take them off the blockers and they'd undergo puberty as normal. There's not all that much downside for an awful lot of upside for those in need.

Show threadOneLemmyMan
seen doctors force sex change to children that lead to the child killing themselves in adulthood. Doctors are just people and people are all the same
Mar 13, 2024 at 11:19amWeb
Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
Bullshit. Source or it didn’t happen.
Show threadEx NummisMar 13, 2024
I’ve seen this claim many, many times, but I have yet to see my very first news article (from an actual source!) confirming it.
Show threadWiselyMar 13, 2024

Even if there was a case out there, the vast majority of suicides are by those who are denied medical treatment and/or suffer discrimination.

By forcing puberty, politicians are forcing these teens to face a future where for example they have to live as a woman with a male sounding voice or beard. Needing more expensive and painful treatments to partially reverse such as facial feminization surgery. That is life full of discrimination and didn’t have to be.

Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024

the vast majority of suicides are by those who are denied medical treatment and/or suffer discrimination.

Do you have sources comparing the suicide rates of those denied trans treatment and those granted it at an early age?

Show threadWiselyMar 13, 2024

I am only aware of smaller studies such as this that are about generalized mental health. This is definitely something that needs more funding.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/

I have worked with and met hundreds of people who transitioned. There is an extensive problem of suicidal ideation amongst people who are denied medical treatment for one reason or another. It is almost universal that they are suffering stress, depression, anxiety, and/or PTSD directly resulting from the effects of going through a puberty they didn’t want, and the resulting discrimination from that.

I have never seen a case of someone who merely had puberty delayed before transitioning regretting it. I can’t say that it never happens, as everyone is their own person. While I do personally know people who have died after being denied medical coverage for transition.

It makes sense to strive towards filtering out those who don’t need medical intervention, just don’t completely block those who actually do need it. Cutting funding for medically necessary treatment is also a form off blocking since many can’t afford it otherwise.

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed

This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period, which …

PubMed
Show threadHopeOfTheGunbladeMar 13, 2024
In absolute fairness, this is what happened to David Reimer. It's how we know that you can't just force a gender on someone, even if you start when they're an infant. Conversion therapy never ever helps, it only ever hurts, and trying to force trans kids to be cis is as bad as trying to force cis kids to be trans. Let people pick their own goddamn paths in life, it's not that hard to keep your nose out of other people's business (not you, the busybodies who have to "save the children" from well researched medicine and medical professionals with their common sense >.<)
Show threadbrbpostingMar 13, 2024
omg, RIP David Reimer
David Reimer - Wikipedia

Show threadHopeOfTheGunbladeMar 14, 2024
Yeah, it's fucking awful. John Money was incredibly fucked up as a person, and even with all of the terrible that's documented, there's at least hints that it was even worse; that the surgeon who fucked up the circumcision did so, so that Money had a twin pair for his study. Using a cauterizing iron in that way and at those settings certainly wasn't a standard procedure.
Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024
Reimer twins. It’s a well documented case. I suspect that is the case they are referencing.
Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
One case in the 60s/70s? That’s bad evidence. I assume you are clarifying and not supporting the person above.
Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024

Why don’t you calm down and not be hostile.

You asked for a case. I gave you as well known case.

If you had read the case, it was common practice and that is the study that ended it.

Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024

Disinformation merits hostility. I’ll yield when I’m wrong.

Because this case ended it, it is no longer true that doctors force transitioning, thus proving my assertion that the person above is full of shit. Show me a relevant case and I’ll be happy to change my mind. Some case in which a doctor forced transitioning and was not prosecuted or sued over it within the last decade. I’m flexible on the date.

Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024

If you had read the case, which you haven’t. You would have learned this was a common practice.

You keep moving the goalpost. I was just responding to your inaccurate statement.

Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
Was. It was common practice. It is not relevant because the person above asserted that it is currently common practice. My goalposts are stationary and your evidence only provides historical context.
Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024
I never saw him say current. If missed where he said current, my apologizes. When I look at his statement, I still don’t see it.
Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024

Context clues and elementary understanding of language. They stated, prior to mod removal, that they had seen doctors force transitioning. Present tense. This would imply that the person was alive in the 60s/70s (reasonable, though Lemmy’s demographics make that unusual). The more likely, and unprovable on the internet, truth is that the person is regurgitating misinformation.

A quote from someone that quoted the person (incompletely it seems): “seen doctors force sex change to children that lead to the child killing themselves in adulthood”.

This also does not address the inherent misleading portion of it, which is the thing that merits the outrage: cases from half a century ago are not a basis on which to inform people of wrongdoing in modern healthcare. Granted, I didn’t explicitly state that as a goal from the outset, but we’re cuddling up next to bad faith to assert that as unreasonable.

Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024

It’s possible they did based on age.

If they are talking about currently, I would call BS just like you.

Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
That if smells of capitulation without agreement, but thank you in any case. I hope you have a nice day.
Show threadNeuromancerMar 13, 2024
I think we are more in agreement than disagreement. Either you read too much into it or I didn’t read enough into it. Either way we both agree it isn’t a current issue.
Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
That’s fair and I would agree, and further guess that I’m reading too far.
Show threadMxM111Mar 13, 2024

Even assuming it is true,

  • would that person kill themselves regardless or even earlier?
  • doctors are people sure, but at least they have medical training, and supposed to focus on the interest of the patient, as opposed to politicians, who are focused on satisfying their constituents.
    • Show threadOneLemmyManMar 15, 2024
    did i say we should allow politicians to choose? i swear most people here try to push their agenta one way or another. People replying saying things that dont exist in my comment. My reply was about letting each person choose their path when they are old enough to make that choice but it turned into fashion, countles stories of parents that want to have the “im progressive” stamp so they push their children to change gender, why not let them be? if they ask to change gender then you can talk about it and have specialists talk to the child to make sure that this is really what it wants, but letting doctors be the one to suggest it is crazy to me, if the child doesn’t initiate that conversation.
    Show threadNOT_RICKMar 13, 2024
    Good thing puberty blockers aren’t a fucking sex change. Even if your almost certainly bullshit comment was true, it still as relevant to puberty blockers as birth control pills are to abortion; related, but a completely different function.
    Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024

    Calm down. Why are you getting so mad because he made a rational comment?

    This fierce tribalism needs to stop.

    Show threadNOT_RICKMar 13, 2024
    There’s nothing tribal about calling out bullshit and there’s nothing rational about making shit up. Telling that you tone police me rather than refuting what I said, though.
    Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024

    Yeah, but you’re only getting upset because he said something rational that you didn’t like.

    Now you’re trying to pretend it doesn’t make sense because again, it’s something you don’t like.

    Why can’t you people argue in good faith? Is it because you’re tribalist?

    Show threadNOT_RICKMar 13, 2024

    Why can’t you people argue in good faith?

    First off, Hitchen’s razor.

    Besides that, physician heal thyself. Every interaction I’ve had with you has consisted of you asking me leading questions. You keep asking people that disagree with what seems to be your position to provide evidence to back their claims yet you’re perfectly happy to accept a false claim because it aligns with your views. If you were actually the paragon of objectivity you pretend to be you’d ask the guy above to backup his claim too. So, can you remind me who is tribal?

    Show threadDiotimaMar 13, 2024

    I've seen space vampires enslave circus clowns in a plot to corner the world's market on instant ramen, too.

    Source: Trust me bro.

    Show threadDiotimaMar 13, 2024

    I've seen space vampires enslave circus clowns in a plot to corner the world's market on instant ramen, too.

    Source: Trust me bro.

    Show threaddeejay4amMar 13, 2024
    I’m sure then you’ve also seen the basement of Cosmic Pizza
    Show threadhydropticMar 13, 2024

    seen doctors force sex change to children that lead to the child killing themselves in adulthood

    Why do transphobes lie all the fucking time? Like, is there something wrong with your brain preventing you from not lying?

    Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024

    Why do you people always argue in bad faith?

    Detransitioning is real and a lot of people end up regretting the decisions that you pressure them into making.

    Show threadNOT_RICKMar 13, 2024
    It’s a good thing that medical best practice is to put adolescents on reversible puberty blockers until they are adults at which point the adult can make decisions about their medical care, then.
    Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
    He’s not referring to detransitioning (which is real though a minority to my understanding). He’s referring to the blatant lie that doctors force patients to transition.
    Show threadfloofloofMar 13, 2024

    Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Prevalence

    Results: A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively. A total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS. Twenty-eight had minor and 34 had major regret based on Pfäfflin’s regret classification. The majority had clear regret based on Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis classification.

    Conclusions: Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS.

    Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic... : Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery – Global Open

    The aim of this study was to evaluate the prevalence of regret in transgender individuals who underwent GAS and evaluate associated factors. Methods: A systematic review of several databases was conducted. Random-effects meta-analysis, meta-regression, and subgroup and sensitivity analyses were performed. Results: A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively. A total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS. Twenty-eight had minor and 34 had major regret based on Pfäfflin’s regret classification. The majority had clear regret based on Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis classification. Conclusions: Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population....

    LWW
    Show threadfrezikMar 13, 2024

    For additional context, here’s a study on the regret rate of hip and knee surgery:

    On analysis a significantly greater proportion of TKA [total knee replacement] patients reported moderate or severe (Mod/Sev) DR [17.1% (56/328)] compared to THA [total hip replacement] patients [4.8% (18/376)]. Conversely, a significantly reduced proportion of TKA patients reported having No DR [42.1% (138/328)] compared to THA patients [66.7% (251/376)]. On multivariate logistic regression analysis joint replacement type (TKA/THA) and change in Oxford score were significant predictors of DR with gender, age, BMI and ASA grade not significantly associated. TKA patients were more than twice as likely to have Mod/Sev DR compared THA patients (Odds Ratio = 2.33 (95% CI 1.24-4.39)). Patients with poorer improvements in pain and function 1-year post-operatively (measured by Oxford scores) reported greater levels of DR.

    Regret rate of gender affirming surgery is basically rounding error.

    Decision regret after primary hip and knee replacement surgery - PubMed

    TKA patients were significantly more likely to report greater levels of DR 1-year following surgery compared to THA patients. For both TKA and THA patients, greater levels of DR were associated with poorer Oxford scores. The use of decision aids to reduce post-operative DR in joint replacement patie …

    PubMed
    Show threadfeedum_sneedsonMar 14, 2024
    Well now I’m confused, because I’ve met a lot of people with knee replacements who were very happy with the results. All surgeries can and do have complications, so I’m very surprised the numbers are that low for SRS. It implies it goes perfectly almost every time.
    Show threadLaurentideMar 15, 2024
    It implies that living with gender dysphoria is so painful that people would rather have the surgical complications.
    Show threadfeedum_sneedsonMar 15, 2024
    Arthritic knees and hips are not great either.
    Show threadandros_rexMar 14, 2024

    Even people who regret their surgeries aren’t necessarily regretting that they had gender affirming care. Surgeries can go wrong and aren’t always predictable. They can change our relationships with our bodies. Regret isn’t always “I regret transitioning” - it can be “I don’t like the way my scars healed.”

    Team “no regrets” here. Right after I got out of surgery I woke up just enough to look down where them titties where and smiled.

    Show threadĹįĺįţĥ ţĥę §ęŕpęŋţ🍏🐍Mar 13, 2024

    You are so full of shit. Why do transphobes always insist transitioning is forced?

    What about when trans people are forced to not transition? Suicide rates go up.

    What happened to me when I was forced to conform to a cis gender role for 40 years? Denial, suicidal thoughts, drug addiction, and alcoholism. After I started hormone therapy, I completely lost all interest in drugs and alcohol, and I no longer consider suicide. I’m happy and I want to take care of myself. I became a productive member of society.

    There are about 1.5 million transgender people living in the US. 1% regret their decision and detransition. That is 15,000 people. And 0% of them were “pressured” into transitioning.

    Show threadhydropticMar 13, 2024
    Detransitioning is a different claim than doctors forcing someone to transition you dumbass
    Show threadOneLemmyManMar 15, 2024
    the guy was forced from his parents due to doctors advice
    Show threadOneLemmyManMar 15, 2024
    it was a documentary on tv about a guy that tried to detransition but for whatever reason was not happy with it
    Show threadSolivineMar 13, 2024
    Transition surgeries have among the lowest regret rates for any kind of surgery. They are life saving.
    Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024
    Where did you get this information?
    Show threadDesertCreosoteMar 13, 2024

    On the off chance that you’re actually asking, there have been studies that have shown the regret rate for transitioning is less than 1%.

    Here’s an article about a recent study which tracked people up to 23 years post-transition, showing median regret as 0 out of 100.

    Now, you might be thinking to yourself “but that’s just one study, with around 200 participants, and the results were so uniform it caused issues with the statistics. Maybe it’s wrong.” Well, here is a meta-analysis of 27 additional studies, with almost 8,000 participants, which also shows regret rates are <1%.

    Hope that helps.

    No regrets: Gender-affirming chest surgery in adults has long-term satisfaction

    Evidence of high satisfaction among adults getting gender-affirming care.

    Ars Technica
    Show threadfeedum_sneedsonMar 14, 2024
    Interesting, I can’t access the actual paper but on the face of it that’s quite strong evidence, isn’t it. But I’ve never had a problem with people undergoing elective SRS as adults.
    Show threadSolivineMar 14, 2024
    Thanks for responding to them and finding the sources, I find that exhausting with bad faith arguers.
    Show threadBaardFigurMar 14, 2024
    Or it may ruin a life vg.no/…/rikshospitalet-om-aleksander-en-medisinsk…
    Rikshospitalet om Aleksander: – En medisinsk katastrofe

    Aleksander (30) mener han trengte noen å snakke med - ikke underlivskirurgi. Ingen vet hvor mange nordmenn som angrer etter kjønnsbekreftende behandling.

    VG
    Show threadSolivineMar 14, 2024
    Please read the other comment below that details the regret rate for transition related surgeries.
    Show threadBaardFigurMar 14, 2024

    …translate.goog/…/rikshospitalet-om-aleksander-en…

    The article mentions that there are likely many more cases of regrets, that the numbers are underreported, and that regret doesn’t typically set in straight away, but typically after 5-10 years

    Rikshospitalet om Aleksander: – En medisinsk katastrofe

    Aleksander (30) mener han trengte noen å snakke med - ikke underlivskirurgi. Ingen vet hvor mange nordmenn som angrer etter kjønnsbekreftende behandling.

    VG
    Show threadMouselemmingMar 13, 2024

    Puberty is a sex change forced on all children by their own hormones. Just because it matches the sex they were assigned at birth doesn’t mean it doesn’t force radical physical changes. It’s stressful even for cis kids, and can lead trans kids towards suicide.

    Blocking it postpones the permanent physical changes until the person is old enough to make a rational decision whether to have (less extreme needed) medical intervention to achieve a physical appearance that matches the sex they weren’t assigned at birth, or to stop taking the blockers and allow their assigned sexual characteristics to develop.

    Anyone who thinks doctors are pushing trans surgeries should be in favor of puberty blockers.

    Show threadfeedum_sneedsonMar 14, 2024
    That’s a bit like saying life is forced on you by your conception and birth, though. It’s getting a bit metaphysical at this point.
    Show threadharderian729Mar 13, 2024

    Agreed. That’s a very rational take to have on these forums.

    Most people here get mad at you if you don’t show unwavering, blind support for their tribe.

    Show threadmanicluckyMar 13, 2024
    Big claims need big evidence. Source.
    Show threadotpMar 13, 2024

    their tribe

    …you say, as you go around supporting the one unfounded comment from “your tribe” as you argue against every single other commenter who called out that BS comment.

    I think this “tribalism” thing you’re talking about is projection. You’re aligning with what you think is your “tribe” and arguing against the dozens of people with different viewpoints and opinions who just happen to disagree with that massively downvoted comment.

    Show threadĹįĺįţĥ ţĥę §ęŕpęŋţ🍏🐍Mar 13, 2024
    That is complete bullshit and you know it. What’s your source? Prove it or it didn’t happen.
    Show threadfrostysauceMar 14, 2024
    No you fucking haven’t.