I am re-reading Dune. This quote by the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam is remarkable:

“Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”

It's not about a Terminator-style AI-apocalypse where the machines want to kill us all dead. It's just an accurate prediction of what actually appears to be happening.

@hllizi
Yes.
However, as we can read in the following lot of text, Butlers Dschihad was not a good solution of the problem.
@_RyekDarkener_ there appears to be room for improvement, yes.

@hllizi @_RyekDarkener_

I mean, I'm not certain I'd endorse everyone who ever nodded at "workers of the world, unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains"

But it's still a fundamentally accurate point

@_RyekDarkener_ @hllizi The Butlerian Jihad happens 10,000 years before the events depicted in Dune, so it's a little hard to point to cause and effect there.
@TomSwirly @_RyekDarkener_ @hllizi That's true, but it also means that the taboo has stood for 10,000 years and is still effective (so far). I guess that fact actually points to the astronomical disparity in wealth, education, and access to tech - also relevant IRL.

@TomSwirly @hllizi

The point is that the way of society which lead to "Dune" was neither hindered with or without computers. As nobody took care of the real problem.

@hllizi oh Dune has so many of those.
@hllizi the prequels / sequels / intermezzos / whatever by the son rally are non canonical, specially in this kind of stuff
@Atridas never read any of these.
@hllizi @Atridas Would not recommend
@PBernhardt @hllizi They're not that bad by themselves, but they really have none of the core values from the original saga.
@Atridas @hllizi Ehhhh, I have been working my way through them lately. Frank Herbert's books, then the Bulterian Jihad, now Hunters and Sandworms. The new ones miss the themes for sure, but they also really don't understand the implications of any of the technology they've invented (which is a cardinal sin for scifi, imo). However they are also just waaaaay overwritten, and, worst of all, just full of terrible plans and "competent" characters making bad choices. I am very glad to be almost done
@PBernhardt @hllizi hunters and sandworms are particular terrible. I didn't read beyond that
@hllizi
The plot of the Hyperion Cantos of very similar. Hyperion isn't better than the first two Dune books, but it is better than many of the other sequels. AB is on YT.
@slyyy
@noyes @hllizi @slyyy Almost any random book in the library is better than many of the Dune sequels. 🤣 Frank Herbert may be the most uneven author of all time. He wrote a book called Destination Void where literally nothing happened in the entire book. I read the whole thing thinking “surely something will happen before the end”, but nope, nada, zip. But Dune and White Plague were brilliant.
@provuejim @noyes @slyyy Sounds like you had reached the destination before you knew.
@hllizi In God Emperor of Dune, the Butlerian rules against machines were still in force, but the Emperor used machines in secret.
@hllizi @kaoudis you’d enjoy “the Technological Society” by Ellul (enjoy might be a stretch, because it’s honestly pretty haunting how accurately he foretold our current societal dynamics)
@shortridge @kaoudis thanks, I'll put it on my list.
@hllizi Butlerian Jihad when?
@igb too tired. Everyone is so very tired and just wants it all to be over.
@hllizi @igb go by the Star Trek calendar instead, we're much closer
@hllizi There are more elements that could have been in the background of that quote: 1) cybernetics as a field was blooming at about the time Herbert was writing the novel, and it's a field about systems and processes of decision-making (in many cases automating the process); 2) two decades before, the Third Reich had used computers and automation as part of the process of the Holocaust, which I suspect was not something Herbert would've missed.
@Illuminatus iirc, Cybernetics and Artificial Intelligence were competing marketing terms for a while and AI finally came out on top.
@hllizi Cybernetics was at the time <heavily> involved with Cold War logic and the MAD doctrine (see: 'Dr. strange love, or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Bomb'). The Cold Warriors had a stiffy for anything that could remove the human factor from the thermonuclear holocaust decision process.
@hllizi I read Dune in the 1970s, but 100% of the time I have spoken or written the phrase "Butlerian Jihad" has been in the last twelve months. And yes, I'm for it.

@hllizi I should add that when I first read that book, I just hated the whole idea of getting rid of AI. In the 1970s, computers were the coolest thing in the world to me!

But as I saw the results, well...

@hllizi this reminds me of the murderbot short "compulsory". I love the whole serie but that short is 8 pages long and shows a faceless corporation using machines to keep people enslaved while the same machine could have a much more positive impact
@gkrnours one of the basic ideas in 1984 is that the machines would have opened the path into an egalitarian post-scarcity world, so something had to be done to keep up class distinctions and stay in power.
@hllizi I guess it already happened
@hllizi There's so much prescience in that book I sometimes wonder if Herbert actually did discover "Spice".

@hllizi

Die Leute, die das Internet gemacht haben, haben Neuromancer gelesen. Die Leute, die die GPTs gemacht haben, haben den Wüstenplanet gelesen.

Das waren keine Gebrauchsanleitungen!

@hllizi everything that happens to us is somewhere in a sci fi novel, I'm almost positive
@hllizi It was the Titans that enslaved men. They were really Cyborgs rather than AI. The Bene Gesserit adepts had the ability to create EMP or some other energy bolts that destroyed the machines. The Kevin Herbert books filled in the rich background of the Duneverse 10,000 years ago. They describe the founding of the Spacing Guild Navigators, Mentats, Bene Gesserit, and the use of Spice+Guild instantaneous transport rather than months long FTL journeys to get to various planets.

@hllizi @nyrath Oddly prescient. But I'm thinking it doesn't just apply to AI: it (or at least the sentiment) also applies to those who blindly take their opinions from the first vaguely relevant news article, or worse an angry Twitter post by someone they don't know, and stick with that, instead of at least putting in a token effort to look at the world critically.

With our communications technology it's very easy to manipulate people.

@hllizi that's why we need liberatory technology and social ownership of machinery
@hllizi i've always considered myself a butlerian accelerationist XD

@hllizi

Its an incredibly insightful book given it was written before we'd even landed people on the moon

@hllizi Bear in mind that most SF "predictions" aren't really predictions of what will happen in the future, but observations of what is already happening. Look at 2nd gen computers in the early 60s, and Whiz Kids management etc.

OTOH, contemporaneous stories do indeed go with the stereotypical "Computer takes over" plot. So Dune's take was more subtle and interesting.

Colossus and The War Machines were like, "What if computers get out of control?"

Dune was like "What if they don't?"

@hllizi
I’m planning on re-reading prior to the release of Pt II of the new film.
Well, re-listening anyway. I have it on audiobook.

ps: I’m hoping someone has the prescience to do a double feature. Preferably an IMAX.
Some might not be able to do it, but I’m retired. I could easily make a day out of watching Dune Pt I & II.

@hllizi people are way too eager to have AI take on responsibilities and tasks it shows it can't be relied on for. The wish for what it isn't is stronger than the desire to see reality.
Seems to be a common theme of our times, honestly! (NFTs, blockchain, cryptocurrencies, political BS)
@hllizi depressingly accurate

@hllizi Was just explaining this from Dune to my wife today. She has never read SF but lately has been asking a lot about AI and what it means for society. Told her many many SF authors have explored utopian and dystopian outcomes.

Both the kids have read Dune and other stuff, chiming in saying “yeah, mom, you need to read this stuff and you will know what is really happening in the world”. Hope I haven’t unleashed a monster.

@hllizi
I, for one, look forward to the Butlerian Jihad!
@hllizi see industrial revolution led to colonialism
@hllizi that didn't stop humanity to create computers again after the Scattering
@hllizi now read the Hyperion saga. Not until the 4th book before learning the role of AIs and their relation to human evolution comes clear.