Nowhere GirlWhat I want cis white liberals to understand is there's a reason so many poor, trans, Black, Hispanic, Arabic, and other people are upset about politics right now, and it's not because we're "low information voters" or we just feel like being mean to your heroes. It's because yelling at someone like Trump is pointless. We hope yelling at Biden and Democrats is not.
Every time we're told to quiet down and fall in line and just vote and do as we're told, we're hearing that you don't care about our problems or the reasons we're afraid. And that hardens our hearts against you just a little bit more.
"Oh, but of course the Democrats would be better for you" just tells us you haven't even been listening.
Canadian Curmudgeon@gwynnion
But the alternative.... Putin's puppet who will make the USA a hereditary dictatorship...
But the alternative.... Putin's puppet who will make the USA a hereditary dictatorship...
Ciggy Bringer of SmokeSomething that always is unsaid is exactly what every scoldly Liberal who was betrayed by everyone else on The Final Vote Ever are doing under the circumstances. It's frankly annoying to allude to the worst possible outcome and then you imagine them going "I guess that's that about America then" and life doesn't functionally change that much for them at first, and when it starts to show, they are like "We lost the Final Vote Ever".
But is kind of funny that they also sell a secular rapture where it does sound mildly interesting if they ceased to exist as partisans, like, sure the whole reason is bad, but 30 million Americans just spend the rest of their days sobbing and blaming under the bed covers with a phone...it's kind of funny...
The true joke is they're gonna be talking bout 28 in 26 reflexively no matter what happens. Dogged about this shit.
zilla@CdnCurmudgeon @gwynnion whataboutism does not make sense.
Morgan ⚧️@CdnCurmudgeon did you just... Not read the posts? Criticizing Democrats is not the same as voting for Trump. If we aren't allowed to criticize Biden because it'll somehow lead to fascism, fascism is already here and democracy is already dead. Libs love to tell us we have no choice (aka no democracy) and then blame us for the fall of democracy
@raphaelmorgan
I am fine with criticism. But I hope criticism does not lead to voting for his opponent.
I am fine with criticism. But I hope criticism does not lead to voting for his opponent.
@CdnCurmudgeon I hope so, too. I hope he realizes that the people will not accept the lesser of two evils forever, always approaching fascism in infinitely smaller steps, because a limit approaching fascism is just fascism. And I hope that from this realization, he changes his behavior and starts acting like we have anything resembling a democracy.
zetabeta@CdnCurmudgeon @gwynnion
hereditary dictatorship!
you are an optimist!
russian aristocracy or czardom is worse.
hereditary dictatorship!
you are an optimist!
russian aristocracy or czardom is worse.
TheOldManBear@gwynnion it feels like the centrists are still EXACTLY the people Dr King warned us about
Mr. Completely@gwynnion low information my ass. People whose lives and health are directly and constantly threatened by politcal action tend to be very highly informed in my experience since it's a survival necessity. Calling people who disagree with you "low information" is some slapworthy arrogant nonsense and I'm sorry for everyone that has to put up with it. It would piss me off too
TeflonTrout@gwynnion My take is that I am voting for Biden for now.
I fucking hate Biden but at least he's paying lip service and doing a handful of useful things.
He's a big part of the cause of many problems minority communities face by virtue of legislation he's championed alone, and that's not even close to everything.
However, he's the fucker I want to fight, after he's beaten the one I hope dies soon.
@gwynnion I can change people's minds about Biden. I can't do anything to help a trumper
2dogphish@gwynnion @rowjimmy This perspective is enlightening to me and I want to understand. That said-do any of these rightfully angry people understand they are playing Russian roulette with their votes? Because life under the regime Trump/GOP have been quite clear about will be infinitely worse for them (for all of us that aren’t wealthy white MAGAt men) than another Biden term. I beg of you, don’t be so blinded by your anger that you literally give up your life, our collective lives.
Nicole ParsonsHow does yelling at an imperfect ally help win elections against billionaire-funded fascists like Trump?
Andrew Bartlett@Npars01 @gwynnion I really feel for folks in First Past the Post electorates.
These are choices that nobody should have to shoulder.
I am so glad of the privilege of voting for my preferred party knowing that they can work in coalition to achieve shared goals without throwing victory to the other side. But I also ache for those who have no easy answers available to them.
Ubergeek
Paul DO@gwynnion Haven’t seen it explained like this previously. Very insightful perspective. Thanks for sharing.
Ray ☭@gwynnion Yup.
Frankly, Dems aren’t, and have never been, interested in giving us the systemic changes we really need because that would mean ending capitalism. So I understand perfectly why folks are disillusioned.
Their privilege prevents them from understanding that we, minority groups, get hosed regardless of who wins. The wealth gap keeps growing. This shit is literally killing us.
So yeah, please don’t “but Trump” us. We’re not stupid, we know. But that’s not the point.
➴➴➴Æ🜔Ɲ.Ƈꭚ⍴𝔥єɼ👩🏻💻@gwynnion I’ve realized that the only thing I’m “liberal” about is the block button, because liberals can’t fucking resist popping up to basically tell us our opinion is invalid. This group is the most condescending and annoying bunch of people I’ve found here in an otherwise friendly place.
Can’t miss a chance to tell the groups you claim to support that you know better than them.
@gwynnion Is it because Trump actually threatens to negatively impact their material existence the way both parties have negatively impacted poor people over years?
Y’know, by perpetuating the economic system that results in all this inequality we’re seeing now, and have seen for a long time.
Also, I’ve never said people shouldn’t vote but for some reason people always assume that. Oh yeah, because they always miss the point.
Vanessa@gwynnion
The low information comments just piss me off bc I barely ever meet a cishet white person who is more informed than my marginalized friends. & then they have the gall to tell us we should get into politics
The low information comments just piss me off bc I barely ever meet a cishet white person who is more informed than my marginalized friends. & then they have the gall to tell us we should get into politics
Preston Is Not My Real Name@gwynnion ...aren't all or at least most of those descriptors much more reliable Democratic voters than rich cis white liberals? And aren't many of those voter groups not actually particularly progressive? I heard lots of "Kamala is a cop" from Left people of every description a few years back, but the voting habits don't seem to bear out the idea that somehow what the Democratic coalition wants is Leftist policy.
Kathy Archibald@gwynnion
That’s why we yell at them too. 💓
That’s why we yell at them too. 💓
Colin B.🇨🇦@gwynnion
"We're pissed at the Dems!"
Fair enough.
"They keep breaking their promises to us!"
No argument.
"We deserve better, and we need better!"
Absolutely!
"...so we're going to vote for the party that is guaranteed to treat us even worse!"
Ummm...
The Essence of Woerm Sin@swordgeek @gwynnion I’ve not seen anyone saying that they’re going to vote for Trump because Biden isn’t progressive enough for them. If you actually want to engage with people you might like to try doing so in good faith.
@gothytim @gwynnion I genuinely have seen this, and I thought that's where the discussion was leading.
If it's about holding the better of two choices accountable for their bullshit, I totally understand. (Ask me about the Liberals' electoral reform here in Canada if you want a big rant on that subject.)
However, there's a side-effect here as well: People who (rightly) criticize the Dems for failing to live up to their promises may drive others towards the GOP.
@gwynnion We must hold our political leaders to account, be they friend or foe.
Nothing is ignored more than the rusted on voter, till suddenly the rust breaks free and a populist sweeps through offering easy answers because no answers were offered before.
And nothing is gained unless voices are heard. May those voices be heard loudly.
Alexander Goeres 𒀯this is not very logic. yelling at biden and trump gets elected? how should that help those poor trans black hispanic arabic voters?