return2ozmaGen Z embraces 'safety capitalism', says current social safety net is broken
tsonfeirNo they don’t. They want socialism. Or democratic socialism.
DeceptichumOr anarchism or communism.
Anarchism has too many forms and communism doesn’t work on a large scale (greed and corruption are too easy).
I’m not saying capitalism is working!!
Socialism exists only as a stepping stone to the end goal of anarchism/communism.
If you don't believe those work, there is no point in advocating for socialism.
I disagree with you entirely.
Okay.
But you do realise the Soviet Union was socialist right? We kinda need to move away from the state based control model.
To what?
An anarchist/communist based society.
We see time and time again what happens when you give all the power to a small subset of society.
I’m all for a classless society, but we need a structure for governing. I’d say a global structure. But I don’t think humans are capable of that kind of thing. Greed and prejudice are too powerful.
Cowbee [he/they]What, specifically, about Communism is easier to take advantage of with greed and corruption than Capitalism? Why can’t these issues be cleared up with policy changes, and are structural to Communism?
Why does Anarchism having more forms detract from its validity?
El BartoBro. Show me a successful communist nation in which its citizen are happy and with all its basic necessities covered.
Answer my question first. Until then, I’ll ask another: which Capitalist nations can be considered successful, happy, with all basic necessities covered? Not even the Nordic Countries do that, and they still brutally exploit the global south.
Show me happy people.
What, specifically, about Communism is easier to take advantage of with greed and corruption than Capitalism? Why can’t these issues be cleared up with policy changes, and are structural to Communism?
Why does Anarchism having more forms detract from its validity?
I don’t know, man… most developed nations are having quite a nice ride compared to the so-called communist countries.
Do you think it’s because they are Capitalist, or do you think it’s because they’re developed, and started industrializing earlier, with plentiful access to global trade?
Does this matter? Every communist state I’ve known has failed.
The idea may sound good in principle, but clearly humans can’t grasp it.
It absolutely matters. If you’re tying development to quality of life, which I agree with, you also have to make the absolute claim that Socialist states can’t develop, which I disagree with. Capitalism is only a few hundred years old anyways, and already is failing, ie disparity is continuing to accelerate to unsustainable levels.
First of all, what is a “Communist state?” There’s no such thing, so if you clarify what you are referring to, that would help.
Secondly, clarify what you mean by “failed,” because either you don’t know much about leftist states or you’re using a different meaning of the word “failed.”
Finally, what do you mean “the idea sounds good on paper?” If it sounds good on paper, ie it works in theory, what about reality is an unknown factor? If humans can’t grasp it (whatever that means), then it doesn’t work in theory!
You’re playing red scare bingo, lol
A communist state is just that. A nation that adopted communism.
I never mentioned socialism. I think socialism is okay. Or at least democratic socialism.
I was referring to communism.
Communism is a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society. It cannot be adopted by a state. You’re referring to Socialist states.
You clearly do have problems with Socialism, or at least some forms. Democratic Socialism is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, organized similar to a liberal democracy. That’s fine, but the goal of Democratic Socialism is still Communism, eventually.
You were not in fact referring to Communism, which is why I asked that question in the first place.
Thanks for the lesson. Now, what do people mean when they say that Soviet Russia and Cuba are communists?
I don’t think democratic socialism leads towards communism. Hasn’t Sweden implemented a form of socialism, for example?
My questions are not confrontational, but I’ll admit they’re rooted in my limited knowledge but also in my very real experience.
I come from a country that could have been a communism wonder having adopted a socialist approach in 1999, and today it’s in shambles.
Great questions, and I’ll answer both.
The USSR was a Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It was headed by a Communist Party, ie a party trying to build towards Communism, but through Socialism. The end-goal of Socialism is to eventually do away with the state, class, and money, as all 3 are used to oppress people, creating Communism. Same with Cuba.
Sweden is not Socialist, it’s a Social Democracy. The mode of production is Capitalism, with expanded social safety nets. Some industries are nationalized, but Capital is largely in the hands of Capitalists, not shared among Workers. Actual Democratic Socialism would be like if Sweden’s Unions took ownership of all Industry, but maintained government structures.
I hope that clears things up! What you call Communism, is in fact a specific form of Marxist-Leninist Socialism, most likely.
Thanks for explaining.
And why is it that there hasn’t been a successful adoption of this movement?
What do you mean by successful? By most metrics, implementations have led to higher life expectancies, literacy rates, and more, when compared to preceding systems. In forms like Worker co-operatives, these systems are more stable than Capitalist businesses with higher satisfaction, and in cases like the EZLN where its more Libertarian Socialist, they have successfully created a community for themselves.
That’s why I tried to ask why you think Socialist states can’t develop, because quality of life follows development, not Capitalism.
Well, like I said, that’s the perception I’ve had from observing nations such as Cuba, Russia and, more recently, Venezuela.
I’ll concede that some programs under socialism/communism benefit a lot of people. But at what cost? Failing infrastructure, brain drain, indoctrination…
What country under communism has experienced such improvement in quality of life?
Cuba has higher literacy rates and life expectancy than the US, the USSR doubled life expectancy compared to Tsarist Russia and went from Feudalism style farming to space in less than a century. Let there be no misconception, none of these states were ideal, and all had a good deal of issues, but what you’re describing just didn’t exist. All of them improved upon previous conditions.
Venezuela is majority privatized, it’s a Capitalist state anyways.
Again, not under Communism, but under Socialism.
Ok. Thanks. And what sources did you use to assert that? I’m not being pedantic or contrarian. It’s just that if I type “did communism improve people’s lives in the USSR and Cuba?” I don’t know if I can trust the answers (whether yes or no.)
Literacy rates by country: …wikipedia.org/…/List_of_countries_by_literacy_ra…
Life expectancy (looks like the US overtook Cuba as of 2021, likely due to the COVID problems within Cuba and the blockade against them): …wikipedia.org/…/List_of_countries_by_life_expect…
Life expectancy of Russia over time (note WWII as a significant dip): statista.com/…/life-expectancy-russia-all-time/
Again, I’m not at all a Marxist-Leninist, I’m more of an Anarchist. I think we need to learn from what did and did not work.
TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)Bro. Show me a successful communist nation in which its citizen are happy and with all its basic necessities covered.
Name me a country where this happens.
Good point. In that case, show me a successful communist nation.
So, just so we’re clear, Communism doesn’t work, because it hasn’t been successful.
But Capitalism does work, even though it hasn’t been successful.
We do have Socialist nations and they are doing better than everyone else, with the highest happiness rates, and most of the necessities covered. But to answer your question, we have no successful countries at all. The closest we have are Socialist nations.
Hayek’s classic The Road to Serfdom covered it pretty comprehensively: The structural issue with communism is that it is a command economy, and central planning cannot work because the planners always have imperfect information. That may result simply from the impracticality of nation-scale information gathering, or deliberate misinformation from ambitious bureaucrats trying to distinguish themselves by juicing their numbers. In computer terms, capitalism is a massively-distributed system in which the economy is directed by the interactions of all economic agents at the network edge, rather than centralized in one, huge server.
So, as far as greed and corruption go, just like in the computer analogy, I think it’s far easier for individual agents engage in it given an ideal free-market capitalist system(*), but the consequences tend to be localized and contained. In a communist system, it’s very difficult for any arbitrary individual in society to engage in corruption and greed, but for the well-connected party insiders do it, the consequences can be dire, and intractable.
(*) I say ideal capitalist system, because the fatal flaw of capitalism is a mathematical one: The math shows that even with a starting condition of equal opportunity and conditions for all people, a few people end up with most of the wealth (and therefore power) just by pure, random chance.
Hayek was debunked even by Capitalists, that’s why the Austrian school is largely abandoned even among liberals. His ECP has several issues, of which I’ll elaborate on a few.
Hayek assumes a lack of incentives within Socialism/Communism. Even learning the basics of Socialism and Communism can debunk this, but Hayek makes it core to his arguments.
Hayek ties all sources of “rational economic decision making” to price signals, ie profit vs loss. This is similarly incorrect, you can have a demanded service without profit. Some examples include single payer Healthcare, high speed rail, and other free at point of service programs.
Hayek pretends command economies are functionally entirely different from market economies, which is also false. Amazon is entirely internally planned, and often relies on computer automation for planning. A Socialist system would have worker ownership of a larger Amazon.
Largely, you run into issues with corruption when people aren’t accountable. The issue is, in Capitalism, Capitalists are far less accountable than people in a Socialist system might be, as there’s a level of democratic control inherently within Socialism that is lacking in Capitalism.
Communism, as in community driven government, has never existed.
Lol yes it has, we just know the end results. Stop acting like communism hasn’t been tried.
I see you don’t know what communism is. Sad.
I see you tankies don’t know what it is at all. My family has lived through that shit, so you can kindly go fuck yourself. Bad capitalism is 1000xs better than anything communism can spit out.
Weren’t you the guy that even after a 10+ long comment chain still fundamentally didn’t know what Communism was, and then ran away when I threw an actual quote from Critique of the Gotha Programme?
Naa I got bored of arguing with a dumbass tankie. You still think communism is going to magically make people want to work harder than others without rewards and you also still think those in power won’t abuse an it.
You can get more rewards, lol, and in Communism, there isn’t anyone “in power.”
I’m not a tankie, you just legitimately have no idea what you’re talking about.
Lol uhh ok, sure so no one is in power, and there is a reward system for people who work harder…sounds like capitalism a bit…but do go on and tell the class how communism has never been tried, and there is no structure and everyone is equally provided for no matter what they do.
I’ve already explained to you over and over again, it’s really quite exhausting.
Communism is a post-socialist society, where there is no state.
Working harder or longer for more is not Capitalism. Capitalism is about having individual Capital Owners who pay wage laborers to create commodities. If the community shares said Capital, it can’t be considered Capitalism, even if some people are paid more or less.
People have attempted to build Communism, but never got beyond Socialism so far.
There is a structure, just not a state.
It’s a post-socialist society, ie productivity is high enough that everyone can be provided for adequately. We’re actually already there, we just don’t distribute properly.
Lol so lala land with Star Trek replicators…none of what you have said works outside of paper.
You’re describing a fantasy land.
No, you don’t need star trek replicators. We can already do it, but we need to build it.
Lol no for your scenario you absolutely do. Do you think all the food and physical labor magically exists? Do you think people aren’t going to want what someone else has if they have more “rewards”? Communism doesn’t work, because we’re are not ants… we’re humans and humans are creatures that for the mass portion of the population will step on others to get what they want.
If you can get something via cooperation, you’ll do it. Pretty simple. Humans are more communal than competitive.
No we are not, sure in small numbers when small villages and tribes existed because they had to for survival. That shit isn’t going to magically kick in when it’s time for everyone to go harvest food. You have a very naive understanding of humans.
Good thing I didn’t say that, lol.
You don’t have to be a Communist, just stop acting like you know what you’re talking about when you make incorrect authoritative claims like “Communism assumes everyone works for the same outcome” and “Communism assumes people don’t want more.”
It’s incredibly easy to not have opinions about subjects you don’t understand, I encourage you to try!
IninewCrowOr just basic equality … more specifically WEALTH EQUALITY
to remove the power of the wealthy to get even more wealthy by exploiting everyone faster
And to give more power to those with little or no money and give them a chance to gain a bit of wealth.
Honestly if we just created a civilization where we spread the money around a little more equally, we’d have less psychopaths controlling the world and more people wanting to cooperate in making things better.
It wouldn’t create a utopia because we’re too complicated to be happy with one another but it would make our situation more tolerable and manageable.
So, socialism.
The fuck is safety capitalism? Is it just some bullshit word for people who don’t want to say socialism? Fuck, if that’s what it takes for people to accept socialism then they can call it whatever the fuck they want.
Social democracy isn’t sexy enough of a word I suppose. It would be capitalism but with a safety net
Also, it didn’t work out so well
Out of all countries, social democratic Nordic countries are probably doing the best. Pretty good going imo.
also looking at those countries we can see it isn’t a permanent fix though. Capitalists don’t stop fighting and will be successful in the long run
I mean that’s going to be the same for every country and every solution.
How much of their wealth is colonial wealth brought back by their ancestors?
Very little? None of them have been big colonial countries and Finland was itself a colonized country.
Hm, Africa, the Caribbean, Indochina, all bloodily plundered by, lessee here… ah yes, the people of the Nordic countries
[yes I know nobody is innocent and the Sami would have some words but come the fuck on now]