BeboRevealed: car industry was warned keyless vehicles vulnerable to theft a decade ago
𝔻𝔼𝕍𝕀𝕃𝕀𝕊ℍWell that’s why i don’t like keyless vehicles, it’s easy to stole it with some wireless signal emulator
Im the end the principle is same like wireless garage door opener, some thieves can hijack it very easily like no effort
Im the end the principle is same like wireless garage door opener, some thieves can hijack it very easily like no effort
Do you not know what rolling codes are?
sramderIsn’t that what the Flipper Zero is for ;-) Kia notwithstanding it’s not that easy. But the relay attacks have been around since at least 2018 and I suspect years longer.
For garage doors… Yeah, it’s been a thing
Because you can sit something there, monitor the rolling codes, then inject so it has a real one.
For a car, you have to follow them around while they lock/unlock repeatedly. And that’s only if people are using the button and not proximity. If they’re just using proximity, you’re going to have to be standing right next to them.
I think most of the wireless attacks aren't trying to be so sophisticated. They target cars parked at home and use a relay attack that uses a repeater antenna to rebroadcast the signal from the car to the fob inside and vice versa, tricking the car into thinking the fob is nearby. Canada has seen a large spike in this kind of attack. Faraday pouches that you put the fob inside of at home mitigates the attack.
So does not leaving your keys by the front door… not that I follow my own advice :-)
Yeah. Shockingly people store things where it is convenient to have them. :) I'm glad I didn't have a keyless system to with about.
I’m just banking on my car being the least fancy in my complex ;-)
Keyless entry sounds stupid and I’ve totally mocked people for being “to lazy to turn a key.” But pushbutton start makes my slow little Subaru feel like a race car :-)
By keyless entry they don’t mean key fobs with buttons you press to unlock. They mean key fobs on cars with a proximity sensor where you can open the door without taking the key out of your pocket.
Relay attacks don’t need the key to be in close proximity, they can be read from almost anywhere in the house if they aren’t in a faraday pouch or microwave. Have you seen the size of the antennas these attacks use?
I’ve seen a few low res clips over the years… one did use a yagi (Christmas tree looking one?). I’m sure it’s possible, but I don’t think it’s actually a given. I’m not even expert adjacent on this one though 😅
The more recent ones I’ve seen are pretty funny. It’s usually two people with a relay kit: one carrying a massive flexible loop antenna, posing like a starfish walking around the front of the property, and the other beside the vehicle with a wireless keyfob emulator.
Sadly not so funny for the car owners though, AFAIK the vehicles usually end up being broken down into parts. In Canada it’s a little different, they seem to be immediately driven to a port and loaded onto a ship for export.
I don’t believe this is possible on older cars though, just ones with keyless start. Except if you have a US-spec Kia… where you literally just rip out the lock cylinder and use a USB cable to turn the engine start switch, although I believe they’ve fitted immobilizers to those now
Also a microwave isn’t a good Faraday cage… at least not mine ;-)
I have a question. What do you think a rolling code style security system does if the thief is amplifying your key fobs signal by standing in your driveway at 3 am and then transmitting it to your door lock? Because we’re talking about keyless entry where you don’t have to push any buttons on the key fob it just has to be within three feet of the vehicle. They are literally using your key to unlock your door. The key is always transmitting. The vehicle is always receiving. At the point where they have access to the interior of the vehicle they can just pull the fuses for the horn and lights and then pop the transmission shifter cable off the transmission control lever and manually put the car in neutral. This attack takes maybe ten minutes. At that point they can literally just roll the car onto a flatbed and drive away. The flipper zero costs $169 USD. But you can make one from parts for much less. A GPS blocking tool costs around $15. A signal repeater isn’t expensive either. Keyless entry on the whole is broken.
You may stop joyriders and petty thieves. But you won’t stop anyone looking to steal a car who has the know how and who is looking to sell your car for parts. The fact is, a lot of premium cars are vulnerable to attacks like this.
And before you even start about what I know about it, literally I’m an avionics tech. Rolling codes and frequency hopping is how we keep unfriendly forces from listening in on comms. Electronic attack and defence is literally what I did in the Navy for twelve years.
Rolling codes are a good security feature. But they do nothing to stop the attack that other articles on this subject better explain.
cbsnews.com/…/cars-hacked-stolen-keyless-vehicle-…
Could you get "carhacked"? The growing risk of keyless vehicle thefts and how to protect yourself
A new generation of high-tech thieves are attacking vulnerable vehicle computer systems to steal cars in seconds.
Did you read OPs article or the ones you linked?
I went to the ARS one and it’s talking about CAN hacking which requires a physical connection…
It’s a great article, but if it has anything to do with this conversation and if anything backs me up. It’s about all the work thieves are going thru because rolling keys beats emulators.
C’mon man, even if you know what you’re talking about about (doesn’t seem to be the case) you still gotta read your own articles.
helenslunchCars, yes, because they’re permanently transmitting. Garages not so much.
What has that got to do with the price of rice in China? Please explain why what I said has anything at all to do with garage door openers? Because what I said specifically never mentioned garage doors at all.
The person you replied to mentioned garage door openers.
"Well that’s why i don’t like keyless vehicles, it’s easy to stole it with some wireless signal emulator In the end the principle is same like wireless garage door opener, some thieves can hijack it very easily like no effort."
“Do you not know what rolling codes are?”
I responded to the second quoted comment asking (because the article is about car theft) how rolling keys prevent relay (repeater) attacks. There are several people in this thread who are comparing car keys to garage door openers, however, that’s not what my conversation with the person above was about.
Yes, I also read the comments prior to yours, no need to quote then back to me.
So you’re a troll. Good to know. Blocked.
If by “troll” you mean “person providing additional clarifying information” then yes.
donOkay but did the stockholders profit? Yes? Goddamn right they did.
No shit.
I mean not to side with the car industry, and not to dog on non-tech folks, but if you bought a push to start engine that doesn’t require a key…
…
Like how do you think it works?! You couldn’t have thought it was very different from your TV remote, and everyone knows universal remotes exist. In glad there’s so much talk about moving away from passwords and over to physical security keys for computers.
Like how do you think it works?!
Rolling codes…
This article is stupid, the reason Kias and Hyundai are being stolen, is they lack an immobilizer.
So you break the window, crack open the steering column, and the part you turn conveniently is the same size as a USB plugin.
It’s acting like people are hijacking codes, because the author has no idea what they’re talking about about.
I'm not sure about what the article is referencing, which is probably a little more exotic, but relay attacks are very common against keyless cars. Keyless cars are constantly pinging for their matching fob. A relay attack just involves a repeater antenna held outside the car that repeats the signal between the car and the fob inside the house. Since many people leave the fob near the front of the house, it works and allows thieves to enter and start the car. Canada has has a big problem with car thieves using relay attacks to then drive cars into shipping containers and then sell them overseas.
Maybe you should read the article?
If you did, you’d probably be able to see the author has no idea what’s going on.
Like, the international crime ring that you’re talking about that gets cars halfway around the globe in a few weeks?
That happens, but it’s not why so many Kias and Hyundai are being stolen thousands of miles from a coast
I did read the article. I'm unfamiliar with the "hacking" tools or methods they mention given they use terms like emulator. I was simply sharing one wireless attack that is common in certain areas and why.
Don you have a good article discussing how this communication from car to key fob works?
Every fob like this that I’ve seen isn’t effective unless the key is close to the car (inches), because it uses a no-power system in the key fob, similar to a card reader (so no battery required in the fob to unlock car and start engine, once in close proximity). I’ve tested this on a few cars by removing the battery in the key fob.
Other functions (door locks, remote start etc), seem to be provided by conventional key fob electronics.
I’m sure there are several different ways this is accomplished, so any insight would be useful.
Thanks!
Hey, sorry it took so long to see your question. Here is a paper (PDF) on the subject with diagrams.
https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/bitstream/handle/20.500.11850/42365/eth-4572-01.pdf
The link is composed of two parts, the emitter and the receiver. The emitter captures the LF signal and up-
converts it to 2.5 GHz. The obtained 2.5 GHz signal is then amplified and transmitted over the air. The receiver part of the link receives this signal and down-converts it to ob-
tain the original LF signal. This LF signal is then amplified again and sent to a loop LF antenna which reproduces the signal that was emitted by the car in its integrity.
You managed to pack an impressive amount of ignorance into this one comment.
Show me a car today without keyless.
They’ve all been going that way for years. Last car I bought (two years ago, and it was a 2016), I couldn’t find any equivalent vehicle using a key.
And no, I’m not buying some junk just because it uses a key. I buy cars that I know I can keep running forever, and in that category they’re all keyless today.
It’s so difficult to use a regular key though.
I’ve had to cancel journeys before because I get in the car and I just cannot work out how to turn it on 😞
agent_flounderI finally did but…gawd turning a key is so much work!
We need a turnkey solution for this, stat!
BlackmistYou have to use your hands? That’s like a baby’s toy!
These keyless ignition cars should never have been legal and the manufacturers should be on the hook for recalling and fixing them.
I’ve been saying that since they were first released.
That flipper zero (not disguising a car theft tool as a game device btw) can be used to attack said cars is irrelevant, because you could trivially order the parts to make your own.
I hate that the insurance lobby is winning out on security by obscurity via lobbying governments and putting out scary statements, instead of hiking the rates for Kia’s and other trivial to steal cars. The insurers are having their cake and eating it too by wanting to charge money but leaving the wherewithal to actually charge rates commensurate with risk.
Where I live, insurance companies have been charging higher rates on most Kia models specifically because of how targeted they’ve become by thieves.
It’s not just a car theft tool, its not really even intended for that. It’s just a neat little multi tool and it isn’t even close to the first or only device capable of repeating recorded codes. A hammer can be used to break into a car really easily and nobody’s ever called those “car theft tools disguised as hand-tools”
Yes sorry if that was miscommunicated. It’s a neat multi tool, that has a fun design. It’s not a tool for stealing cars, but can be used for that kind of thing.
Really its a wonder we didn’t have really simple radio tools for theft before.
It’s not a tool for stealing cars, but can be used for that kind of thing.
Not any cars sold in the last 40 years.
AatubeSeems to be specifically about these you unlock from your phone and then press a button to start
A device disguised as a games console - known as an “emulator” - is being exploited by thieves to steal vehicles within 20 seconds by mimicking the electronic key.
Don’t they use rolling codes? So I suppose this emulator is some malware you install on your phone
I would hope that they would use rolling codes, but I would also not be all that surprised if they did not. Car manufacturers have cheaped out for less.
The emulator part seems like it’s confusing a few different things together. Although I’m a little suspect of that, since someone holding up a games console to a car or house is suspicious anyway.
It could also be described as an emulator (emulating the key), and the crossover with game emulators might be causing some confusion?
A dedicated device might make sense there, if it has better antennas, or better capabilities than would be available with a basic phone, in addition to being less technical than having to install an app and fiddle about with all of that.
Yeah, someone got confused with all the terminology. Probably also old people think small stuff with a screen looks like a gameboy?
Baron Von JCould be the Flipper Zero that Canada just banned, due to it’s use in car thefts.
Canada’s Flipper Zero ban: once again, politicians show they know nothing about technology
Following the lead of countries like Brazil and platforms such as Amazon, now Canada has banned the Flipper Zero, a multi-functional digital device that has generated fascination and controversy in…
The flipper zero can’t get around rolling codes, unless it’s a very specific situation. Car thiefs aren’t using them.
The OP’s quote leaves out the “It is being targeted at Hyundai and Kia models.” part. From what I can find those brands are (were?) susceptible to rollback where sending an old code reactivates codes that came after it
KairuByteDefault firmware cannot, and most cars won’t work. But specific makes have decades old security holes that still exist in new models… for reasons?
It couldn’t be, and they haven’t been used in thefts. They’ve just been used to make viral TikTok videos staging thefts. Politicians can’t tell the difference.
They struck gold in the most horrible way possible: People dependent on their cars + their car keeps getting stolen = infinite money printing machine
uisI hear americans love big cars. Here is big car for them to buy:
vaultdweller013Dude youre being a condescending ass, plenty of us wish we had the ability to use public transit but it is either wholly insufficient or non existant in many places.
Just using myself as an example, say I want to go to taco bell I have 2 options drive for 15 minutes at most or walk for over 2 hours because my city is built on a fucking slope. Also the city has no infra city public transit cause we’re too small, also most of the city is actually pretty walkable if you live towards the center of the East West axis which I do not.
Have ya tried a bike/ebike? Till I was 26 all I ever used was a bike. Can easily do 20km/hr and bypass traffic. Used to work 12 hr shifts and bike to and from work (12km) and where I am there are hills in both directions
Shit I got an e bike now that does 50kph/32mph and I can get to work (8km) in less than 15 min
I used to bike all around town in highschool and middleschool, but the problem is that they only shave off so much time relatively speaking. Also once again I must note I live in the worst part of town for walking or biking anywhere, bout 30 minutes to walk anywhere bout an hour and a half minimum to walk back home.
30 min walk is maybe a 10 min bike ride, 1.5 hr walk maybe 30 min.
I’ve had a few bikes stolen from me, never stopped me from biking. And it’s a shit ton better than walking
I find it hard to believe cities are too small for public transit and too big to walk at the same time. I find it easier to believe people are just too lazy for a 30 min walk.
It wouldnt be too big for wlakability if it wasnt on aa fucking slope, 30 minute walk downhill will translate into an hour minimum walk up hill.
Looks like ya hit a sore spot with some millimeter peters
Wut?
Small dick people downvoting