Collision Resistance‘Entire family gone’: Israel kills 250 Palestinians in 24 hours
CyborganismMan, fuck Israel. I hope they all end up at the fucking international court at the Hague and go to jail for crimes against humanity and that the world finally tells Israel to back the fuck off and go back to the borders that were drawn in the 1967 UN Security Council resolution.
I can tell you without a doubt that as long as the US backs Israel this will not happen.
Yup. Two words: Vee, and toe.
US backing leaves Israel invulnerable tbh
be_excellent_to_each_otherfuck off and go back to the borders that were drawn in the 1967 UN Security Council resolution.
Yeah I ran across this awhile ago posted by Björk, and have been wondering if it's factual. Paints a bit of a different picture of the motivations of Palestinians in general if true:
I'd be interested to see the 2023 version.
Aw man. My original comment was removed for incivility. Apologies to the mods. Thanks for not banning me on the spot. That’s appreciated.
Gotta say it’s difficult to remain civil in the face of a genocide.
What my original comment said, without the incivility, was:
I hope Israel and it’s military end up at the international court at the Hague and go to jail for crimes against humanity and that the world finally tells Israel to back off and go back to the borders that were drawn in the 1967 UN Security Council resolution.
You are referring to the return of the “land for peace” idea from '67; but, Israel engaging in that peace process and returning said land (that was won by conquest during a defensive war in '48) merely resulted in the '69 war and '73 invasion. Since then, Arab leaders have completed a 180° about-face from their stated position of “no recognition, no peace, and no negotiations.” By beginning to normalize with Israel, they have also begun to remove the need for a “land for peace” process, and in large part because of the land Israel has already given back.
Ok well I might have gotten confused over what was signed over which year.
What I was basically trying to say is there was an agreement at some point over the land borders. I might have been the original ones or some other ones later. In any case Israel needs to revert what they’ve done and give the land back until they go back to that border that was agreed upon.
Although, I doubt that even that will bring peace to the region after what they’ve done.
lmao mods here ban for anything nowadays
I wasn’t banned. My comment was deleted because I wasn’t very civil. Lots of f-bombs and stuff.
I think it’s alright to try to encourage a more civil discussion where we can argue by challenging each other’s arguments without using profanity.
Well I guess we found the 4th Reich.
That’s a big family
[Drops flyers with warning message saying “we will attack soon; flee, those who can!”]
[Attacks the refugee camps, oh and also hospitals]
100% assholes. 👌 Equal or worse than the Russians, I swear to freaking God.
proleI don’t think I remember hearing about Russians bombing Ukrainian refugee camps (though I could have missed it).
Seems like Putin sees civilians as an inconvenience that get in the way of his goals. For Netanyahu, it seems as though killing the civilians is the goal. I would say that the latter is objectively worse (though they are both pieces of shit).
Russia intentionally bombed a ton of civilian targets with zero military value. It’s weird that you don’t remember this. There’s even a lengthy Wikipedia article specifically about it: …wikipedia.org/…/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russ…
Yeah, I seem to remember a lot of cruise missiles hitting apartments and schools.
That’s exactly what came immediately to mind for me as well.
Now that you mention the apartments bombings, I do remember see footage of that. You guys are right
that guyYeah I wish Bill Clinton wouldn’t have done that
Not to mention eradicating close to the entirety of the military-aged male population in Donetsk and Luhansk by forced conscription.
I might grant Putin though that he’s only doing a cultural genocide, that is, the attacks on civilian infrastructure have the actual military goal of breaking resistance – which is known to generally not work, hence why it’s a war crime. He’s perfectly fine with people staying alive as long as they bend the knee and become Russian.
the attacks on civilian infrastructure have the actual military goal of breaking resistance – which is known to generally not work, hence why it’s a war crime.
I think it’d be a war crime even if it generally worked.
Putin sees civilians as an inconvenience that get in the way of his goals. For Netanyahu, it seems as though killing the civilians is the goal
Yes exactly, that was basically my point, that Israel is actively attacking civilians almost exclusively (it feels like to me anyway).
If that were actually true, deaths would be several orders of magnitude higher. They have the munitions and capability to kill significantly more people.
Bottom line is that anytime you conduct war in a dense urban area, or conduct a ground assault, civilian casualties will be high.
Bombing refugee camps, hospitals, schools and just plain carpet bombing districts does not seem like the IDF gives a shit about trying to minimize civilian casualties.
We have tons of footage of Russians and Ukrainians engaging each other in battle. There’s no such footage from IDF, and whatever we got from Hamas looks like guerrilla fighters doing hit and run strikes on mostly armor. You know why? Because Israel is not engaged with “Palestine” in a war. Nor with Hamas. Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in their own ethnostate.
You can say that - but seemingly also can’t explain why the death count isn’t stratospherically higher if that was their goal.
Asymmetric warfare always sucks for civilians. The whole point is knowing who a civilian and who’s a combatant is intentionally difficult.
Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms.
death count isn’t stratospherically higher
You also can’t prove how much higher the death toll would actually be, because we’re all just speculating fools. You are using an argumentative fallacy, which is “you can’t explain why this hypothetical thing isn’t occurring” when it doesn’t really have to be occurring. Can’t remember which that is. Red herring? Straw man? Ah, I can’t remember.
Anyway, we’re going by what we’re seeing, which is the bombing of innocent civilians. Terrible, terrible state of the world right now.
I can’t say exactly how many people they could kill if they were targeting civilians, but I can with certainty say it would be significantly more than have currently died.
They could drop many more bombs and shell the entire strip for weeks. These aren’t hypotheticals - we know they have the armament to do that.
There are around 20,000 people dead - out of almost 800,000 in Gaza. If their goal was a genocide, they would have killed significantly more. They certainly have the ammunition and means to do it.
You’re phrasing it too black-and-white. If the “goal was maximizing death” they’d just nuke the site, right? But doing so has other consequences. It’s probably much more complex than that. You can’t just go all in even if you have the means, even if it accomplishes one of your goals. It’s obviously the goal of both sides to exterminate the other, as they openly say so, but there’s a process if you want to accomplish your other goals, whatever they might be. Or not cause unnecessary unrelated problems to the land itself if they want to conquer it, etc.
Sure - but I’m saying they can do it without nukes. They could have easily ratcheted up to 30,000 or 50,000 with conventional weapons - they could actually carpet bomb the strip.
My point is if they were trying to maximize death they could have kill many more people indiscriminately.
Assymetrical warfare in a densely populated area always is going to have a lot of civilian casualties.
Please, would you explain to me what your analysis would be of their actual point of the war, then? Both sides have explicitly claimed that they want the other side exterminated. That’s what I see as the point of the war from both sides at face value. But if you know more, please educate me!
If you otherwise agree with that, then surely you could agree that there’s a lot of strategy going into warfare, and that maximizing death doesn’t have to mean that it has to happen as quickly as possible, because that might not be as efficient, or it might damage things that they value as spoils. Infrastructure, buildings, fertile land… “Maximizing death” doesn’t have to be the same as “having one of the goals be to exterminate the people”. Because they might have other goals beside that one, e.g. taking over the land, as they have been doing already.
Their stated goals are to rescue hostages and regime change by eliminating Hamas. If the goal is to kill maximum civilians they’re doing a really poor job.
If you just want the land, you just need to move people forcibly or buy it (it’s not like they’re particularly wealthy) and a plan to keep it. If your goal is genocide which so many people suggest, you kinda have to kill them no?
This is part of my problem with all the reactionary takes here - they aren’t consistent with what we’re actually seeing behavior wise.
If the goal is to kill maximum civilians they’re doing a really poor job.
Again, you’re focusing on it having to be executed in minimum time, and on that being a single goal, but as you say, there are more goals, and some of the goals may need to be accomplished before the others (like rescuing hostages), hence it not happening immediately or… as fast as you personally expect, or something. I also think some goals could be political bullshit, no offense. Just going by how racist both sides are towards each other, and hearing them both say the other side needs to be exterminated… 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Fair enough. There’s a lot of animosity there. But it feels like all of the reactions here are focused on calling it and framing it as a genocide at all costs.
Your downvotes remind me of the Reddit hive mind. But you are obviously 100% correct and anyone over the age of about 25 knows it.
It has been almost 3 months since the Hamas terrorist attack. If Israel was trying to kill as many civilians as possible, as you said, the death toll would be orders of magnitude higher.
So many people commenting here have no sense of historical perspective at all. I see people using words like “astounding” and “world record” and “genocide” to describe the death toll in this conflict. It’s hard to know where to start with that level of historical ignorance.
I should know better than to get sucked into this. But you’re right. I’ve been repeatedly told the most complex and longest lasting conflict in history is “simple”. Should stick to Israel bad / Palestine good, communists good / capitalists bad, no one likes nuance or shades of gray here.
They’re wildly different wars from a population density per square mile perspective.
So maybe 2,000 pound bombs weren’t the right weapon?
There are no good weapons for densely populated areas. Civilian casualties will always be high in populated urban areas unfortunately.
Especially when you’ve cornered that population in an open air prison before bombing them.
Egypt could open their gates if they wanted to.
So Israel can displace the whole population of Palestine? That’s genocide. You’re pro genocide.
First, I’m not pro anything. I didn’t say anyone should do something. I said there are other parties who could do something.
Second, that isn’t genocide by any definition I’ve heard. And again, to be extra explicit, I’m not saying they should be displaced, or that it would be right to displace anyone.
But you can’t call it an open air prison and then call me a genocide supporter when I point out there’s another door to the “prison”?
Oh, okay. The displacement part is just a crime against humanity according to UN definition, the rest of the genocide is covered by “Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”
There are better weapons though. Also, shooting people who are trying to evacuate through your lines is generally considered bad. Compressing the population into a smaller area that you’re using 2,000 pound bombs in is also bad.
Nobody is expecting zero civilian causalities, but this is obviously the most inept army or a professional army conducting a genocide.
But if it were a professional army conducting a genocide as you allege, wouldn’t they be much better at it? This is where I keep coming back to.
I would agree with “professional army that is ranking military value significantly higher than minimizing civilian casualties” but that isn’t genocide.
They don’t have to be doing it systematically to be doing it. And participation would still likely vary between units. It’s an extremely difficult thing to do psychologically. So some units are pulling all the military age men out to shoot and others are just shooting whoever they happen to see that’s not in an IDF uniform. Both are genocidal acts.
OK… so any war crime is genocide now?
Taken alone, no. But those are just two examples to show how genocide doesn’t necessarily mean trains and ovens.
Russia is bombing no less indiscriminately than Israel, it’s just a much larger theater of war, their aiming capabilities suck and their shit gets shot down a lot before ever reaching anything.
They do the exact same thing day in day out. Taking out a cluster of civilians is probably worth an extra ration of vodka or even worse, a promotion, at this point.
Two wars of terror, if you want. Irony is stone cold dead at this point.
[citation needed]
Do you really need citations over russian war crimes in Ukraine?
Okay.
Wikipedia has a nice summary, feel free to browse the sources yourself.
…wikipedia.org/…/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasi…
…and just because I’m nice, here’s a little something about the booze, which really was just me joking a bit, but sadly there’s some truth there too. From The Hill:
“…The British Ministry of Defense identified heavy drinking as “particularly detrimental to combat effectiveness” of Russian troops, significantly contributing to the high death rates.
The use of non-alcoholic drugs by combatants, such as opium, heroin, cannabis and amphetamine, has historically been equally widespread, and the Russian military today is no exception.”
fr Israel is worse than Russia
Hamas should stop hiding in hospitals.
giggling_engineStop making sense this is lemmy
You might as well have said “this” or “le bacon”
Even if that was the case, the IDF have no moral high ground when attacking the hospital. That just makes their job of killing Hamas harder. Hamas is an irregular force, a terrorist organization. They don’t follow the rules of war. But IDF is a regular army and should act like one lest we see them as a terrorist organization too.
If a dangerous criminal is found milling about in a crowd of people, even if some of of the people are sympathetic to him, the police don’t get to just mow the crowd down to get to him.
Do you realize that a “regular army” would level the place entirely with airstrikes and artillery? --Because that’s what would be most expedient and cost fewer Israeli lives overall.
Eh, the army is pretty regular, and they still went house to house.
Exactly this. Hamas forces are shit for using hospitals and schools as shields, I’ll grant that. But the IDF is a proper first-world military force, and should act the part. Dislodging an occupying force from a command center or strongpoint that also happens to be full of civilians shouldn’t involve bombing the place flat with civilians inside, especially when it’s clearly marked as a noncombatant area (like a hospital or a school). The US Air Force did that, with camera and audio footage that showed the crew knew they weren’t in the right, in Afghanistan (the Kunduz hospital airstrike, 2015), and were roundly vilified for it - why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?
Extremely based. Makes perfect sense; no sarcasm. Well phrased. ❤️