@KevinCarson1

Another similarity between Netanyahu and Putin. Both are occupying territory that doesn't belong to them, murdering civilian populations, and threatening media outlets that don't toe the government line.

@datenritter This is a map of the West Bank elaborated by UN in 2020: https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/westbank_a0_25_06_2020_final.pdf

It counts more than 600k settlers, and includes military bases, roads prohibited to palestinians, and "Area C" (Full Israeli control over security, planning and construction). According to Wikipedia, Area C comprises 61% of the West Bank land.

@jalda Yeah, that settlement bullshit should stop.

I find the comparison to Putin bizarre though. Ukraine never wanted to drive Russia into the sea, nor did they fail to control their own territory or even to sign a contract. Neither did Israel wipe complete cities of the map.

Anyway, I understand how you'd consider this an occupation.

@datenritter Israel in one and a half month killed 1 out every 200 Gazans [1], amounting to more of 11000 civilians. Russia in 19 months has killed 9700 civilians [2]. If Israel didn't "wipe complete cities" is because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, not because they were less bloodthirsty than Russia.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/gaza-rising-death-toll-civilians/
[2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023

@datenritter Israel raided the Al-Shifa hospital on November 14, and two weeks later still hasn't produced a single piece of evidence of terrorist activity. Surely the burden of proof should be much stronger before taking military actions against an hospital.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/23/idf-gaza-hospital-tunnels-director-arrested/

@jalda See that's what I mean by double standards. You see the tunnels, you know Hamas use these tunnels, you know Hamas use civilians as humans shields, you know Israel could just have bombed the place instead of besieging it, and you also know there is a lot of intelligence work going on in the background. Israel has aerial reconnaissance and informers. Still you hold to the idea Israel needs to deliver perfect proof, at least two days before, kindly asking the international community to allow the attack, while Hamas just moves out of the place? Why should Israel even be 100% sure in a warzone? Completely unrealistic. Also, since when is Hamas expected to leave litter in tunnels? WTF?

IDF claim they brought medical supplies with them. (No proof, but again: They didn't flatten the place.)

There are recordings from CCTV and other indications for Hamas activity, including at least 5 killed Hamas fighters.

And there's this from 2015: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report

You want more sources?

@datenritter Of course there is a double standard! Hamas is a terrorist group. Asking to treat Israel the same way as Hamas is asking to treat them as a terrorist group, and not as a democratic country where the rule of law applies.

Anyway the Israeli claim was that the hospital was a key command center. Now the claim is that there are tunnels and at some point some terrorists passed by. Moving the goalposts.

@jalda This is the best and most neutral and fact-based video I have found so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2cPTxpfveU

Big part of it covers the two famous hospitals.

Tunnels and AI report are enough evidence for me. The hospitals are still there btw.

@datenritter I'm at work, so I can't watch any videos.

Yes, the tunnels exist. Part of them were built by Israel in the 90s, and it seems that the Palestinians later expanded them. However, that doesn't prove the intention behind the expansion.

In a cursory search, I have found no news articles about an AI report. Without more details, I cannot tell if the AI report is trustworthy or the usual LLM hallucination.

@jalda It doesn't matter how you interpret the situation. Hamas had been using the hospital and the tunnels below. It's just not plausible they just stopped that after the 1990. Also there are reports about the use. They didn't really look abandoned. Then there's intelligence. It's not like Israel is blind. Not everyone in Gaza loves Hamas. *cough*

The IDF did not bomb the hospital, they literally walked there and shot terrorists which is absolutely okay. Also keep in mind that Hamas is by no means respecting the Geneva Conventions or anything like that.

@datenritter Now it turns out that, according to WaPo, there is no evidence of military use of the tunnels, and that the tunnels weren't even connected to or accessible from the hospital. But it is a good thing that "plausibility" is good enough for you to support and cheer for war crimes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

@jalda WaPo writes: "no *immediate* evidence". Uhuh.

All those tunnels, unused? In Gaza? Amazing. As if someone had cleaned the place up.
Why did the IDF enter the hospital then? For giggles? You know they brought supplies, right? Why would they shoot armed Hamas fighters inside that hospital? You want to tell me those were doctors? Those AKs are no medical equipment, are they? What war crimes are you fantasizing about? The only war crime here is Hamas entering the hospital with guns. Oh, and also keeping people hostage.
We know the tunnels had been in use until at least a few years ago. Hamas tortured people down there. Enough reason to enter.
You're trying to turn this into a fairy tale about places the IDF supposedly may not enter. Why? Because when a Jew put's a foot somewhere it's supposed to be a war crime? Or because you fall for every Hamas propaganda trap?
No other nation was ever asked to operate to such ridiculous standards.

@datenritter "Or because you fall for every Hamas propaganda trap?"

All the links I provided you were from either UN or reputable western newspapers.

On the other hand, the only source you provided me was from "Times of Israel", a known propagandistic media.

@datenritter Here, another pieces of "Hamas propaganda" published by NYT today. I hope you enjoy the indiscriminate killings.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html

@jalda Well, that doesn't look good.

It's got nothing to do with the hospital story, though.

I wonder what we'll here from Israel about the craters and those apartment buildings in the next days.

Bombings like that happen in wars, and they shouldn't. The difference is, in our western societies we criticize and discuss this and then we adjust. (Hopefully.) Russians, Hamas and some others do stuff like that because it's their mission. You criticize them, they torture you to death. The IDF won't celebrate dead children like they do.