In the Hamas/Israel war, why does Palestine have "hostages" but Israel has "prisoners"?
This occurred to me while listening to the news. When they exchange people it’s always hostages for people held in Palestine and prisoners for people held in Israel. Why is that? Is it just perception or is there a practical difference?
Prisoners - combatants or people they claim aided them who have surrendered or been captured without killing
Hostages - members of the public Hamas captured during the initial incursion
www.gov.il/he/Departments/…/is-db?skip=0
Can check their charges here
This is a question of perspective though.
Obviously i don’t hold their views but I presume hammas has some justification along the lines of Israelis being criminals.
This isn’t the reason, it doesn’t matter if Hamas accuses them or not.
They’re considered hostages because Hamas wants to release them in exchange for something.
Israel imprisons Palestinian as a punishment or to achieve specific goals that are not met by releasing them (like preventing political prisoners from engaging with society).
I don’t think either term is morally superior to the other, but they do have some different connotations…
Of course I’m serious.
This isn’t a question of who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s the simple and obvious assertion that all parties think they are right.
Hamas combatants presumably feel their actions are justified.
Hitler probably thought the holocaust was justified.
What an utterly idiotic point.
Well this is factually just not true. Israel kidnaps many Palestinians even children without evidence and releases them after a “holding period”.
They often do this just to bully Palestinians in the west bank.
👽 <– ain’t ever gonna visit this fucked up planet
I mean, we did nuke ourselves. multiple times over. we get our hands on an interstellar drive thingamadohickey and the first thing we’ll probably do with it, is turn it into a giant fucking kinetic-kill missile on an intersect course for wherever the fuck it came from. “return to sender”, with a gold record on it, just in case they wanna listen to ‘what a wonderful world’.
Edit: if the 107 nukes going off (only two were combat, the rest were tests) weren’t enough of a warning… keep in mind we’ve been pumping radio and television broadcasts for… decades. I mean, between Jerry Springer, Jackass and televangelists… y’know?
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It’s the purpose of taking someone captive. Hostage mean it will be used to trade for other stuff.
In normal sense prisoner is taken because they violated the group/country rule and is mean to isolate them from the rest of the group. Under draconian administration they’re taken because whoever the one ruling just want to get rid of them.
Hamas take hostage to trade for the prisoner taken by Israel.
I’ve seen this posted elsewhere, and while it’s a valid thing to talk about it distracts from the bigger issues
Others here have explained the difference between someone who’s taken as a prisoner (they are being held because of something they allegedly did) and someone who’s taken hostage (someone who’s held as security for some other purpose). From what I can tell, even Hamas isn’t saying the hostages are guilty of anything. It seems like those involved in the situation agree that the terminology is appropriate.
The more important discussion imo are:
There is also some more important discussion around terminology, such as one group being called “women” (implies humanity) and another “females” (more formal, scientific, and a term that’s also used for animals).
Gunna go with probably not legit charges seeing as how they arrested about 10,000 civilian Palestinians in Palestine. Notably they were in their own country so it is by definition hostage taking given the laws of Israel so not apply in Palestine and they have no extradition agreement in fact they have the exact opposite.
If someone from the US was taken from the US and put in prison in Israel for a crime in Israel without permission to extradite the other country would be accused of unlawful imprisonment and unlawful extradition. Would anyone like to guess the charge that a country taking a hostage would be accused of?
There are two possible definitions. One is the judicial one many have brought up already:
Hamas just kidnapped random people
Israel took prisoners and charged them with criminal offenses
Another is the geopolitical one:
Israel is a state, so it takes official prisoners. Even if those.were wrongly convicted or innocent people,.they'd still be prisoners of war
Hamas is not a state, it's a gaggle of shitheads. Shitheads can't take prisoners as they have no jurisdiction. So their captives are hostages.
The last one would be the motive:
Hamas holds those people with the motive to trade them off to Israel for some gain or otherwise use them as bargaining chip. Israel has taken those people with the opposite goal: Imprison them/punish them for their crimes
Because they never agreed to the UN partition plan.
I kid of course. If you’re really interested I suggest taking your time to read up on the history of the Ottoman empire post 1800 and then the yishuv and that would lead you to understand the current shituation
Well, Palestinians didn't take hostages. They mostly tried to survive under an oppressive Terror Regime while the government that claims to own the land did nothing but feed on their misery for political gains. They are victims.
Hamas established said terror Regime and then unleashed their hatred on innocents inside and outside of their domain.
We need to clearly separate those two.
A combination of two factors:
semantic difference based on how the people came to be in captivity
@Ilovethebomb I don't really understand your question.
semantic (adjective) Of or relating to meaning, especially meaning in language.
The word "prisoner" has different meaning to the word "hostage" even though there is some overlap.
Lot of bad takes and sensationalism in this thread. The real difference is that one group (prisoners) were charged with crimes, and the others (hostages) weren't.
Whether those criminal charges are valid or not is another story, but that's why they're using different terms for each group, as they're not captive under the same pretense as the other.
Many Palestinian prisoners aren’t charged with crimes and have “secret evidence” held against them. Given Israel’s track record of lying and colonialist activity, I’ll leave you to decide if they actually do have that evidence. aljazeera.com/…/more-than-600-palestinians-held-b…
On top of that, the vast majority of the actual crimes are incredibly minor like rock throwing, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a child. The conditions and treatment in Israel prisons for Palestinians is incredibly grim as well.
There’s a thin vaneer of an unjust legal framework, and the aims of Israel aren’t as explicit to hold them for trade, but they’re a whole lot closer to being hostages than most people care to admit.
They act as a mediator for Israel to fund Hamas.
Not saying they’ve never given any of their own money to the governing body of a destitute open air prison, but that wouldn’t be unique to them.
The hostage deal was negotiated by Qatar, the Hamas leadership is living in luxury in Qatar, Qatar is seeking to gain more influence in the future of Gaza.
Is this really the right moment to blindly trust the Qatar state owned news source with its reporting about a Qatar negotiated deal related to a conflict that Qatar has a vested interest in?
The hostage deal was negotiated by Qatar, the Hamas leadership is living in luxury in Qatar
You’re spelling out how they’re acting like a neutral party here.
Qatar is seeking to gain more influence in the future of Gaza.
It’s a destitute open air prison. Come on now.
Is this really the right moment to blindly trust the Qatar state owned news source with its reporting about a Qatar negotiated deal related to a conflict that Qatar has a vested interest in?
I don’t blindly trust their reporting. It was one search result. Most of the details on Israeli actions and policy come straight from Israeli sources like B’Tselem.
Is it not true? You could tell me that with something backing it instead of complaining about a reputable source.
You’re spelling out how they’re acting like a neutral party here.
Qatar is knowingly and willingly hosting the leadership of a terrorist organization that mass murders innocent civilians - both Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas leaders live in luxury in Qatar, they have billions of dollars stashed away.
That makes Qatar about as “neutral” about Hamas as the Taliban were “neutral” about all Qaeda.
It’s a destitute open air prison. Come on now.
You act like I’m debating that, or like I’m taking sides.
I’m not.
I’m just pointing out that a totalitarian regime - a regime that tolerates no dissent, that enforces strict religious laws, that suppresses women, that has the death penalty for homosexuality, that openly uses slave labor - isn’t some kind of neutral party if it has a vested interest in Gaza and has been openly supporting Hamas for decades.
I don’t blindly trust their reporting.
That’s all I’m asking for.
How about this source, the actual human rights organization that produced the report?
hamoked.org/document.php?dID=Updates2136
Administrative detention constitutes a draconian violation of a person’s rights to liberty and due process. International humanitarian law permits this detention without trial only as an exceptional measure when there is a substantial security threat that cannot be otherwise avoided. But Israel’s use of this measure toward Palestinians is not exceptional at all; Israel holds hundreds of Palestinians from the West Bank in administrative detention for periods of months and even years. Furthermore, administrative detention orders are based on “classified material” such that the detainee has no way to refute the allegations against them. And the Israeli military can extend the period of administrative detention without limit. The infringement of rights of administrative detainees is exacerbated by the fact that many of them are held inside Israel, in blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits the transfer of inmates outside the occupied territory.
I think the children should be made Israeli while being held, if caught engaging in open combat with Israel’s. 3 year sentence of “live as an Israeli citizen.”
Show them who they’re fighting and they’ll stop fighting.
Yes, but also no.
Palestinians who are held without trial are held in administrative detention, that’s usually done if the person poses an immediate danger, but the evidence isn’t up to the legal standard (a judge still has to approve the arrest). It’s also used against Jewish citizens (though admittedly much less. IIRC there are two Jews held in administrative detention right now).
Absolutely none of the Palestinians held in administrative detention are about to be set free, and they aren’t regarded as “standard” prisoners (they are always referred as “administrative detainees”, never “prisoners”).
The question was about why are Palestinians in Israel are called “prisoners” and Israelis in Gaza are “hostages”, in the context of the people exchanged during the truce. The person I replied to said some “prisoners” in Israel are held without trial, to which I replied they are not called “prisoners”, and are not part of the exchange.
So… could you explain the point you’re trying to make? If that’s just some general point about Israel treating Palestinians unjustly, that’s fine (I actually agree with you to some extent), but I don’t see how that has to do with the difference between two specific groups of Palestinians and Israelis.
Well your comment is a blatant fucking lie that’s part one. Many Palestinian hostages who were kidnapped without any evidence or charges were released today. Care to address that?
Yeah, I’d like to address that.
This message turned out a bit longer than I intended, but I really tried to give the best answer I can.
First off, the video takes statements from the Palestinians released and conveyed them as-is. It’s extremely hard to verify things like that, so there’s absolutely no basis saying my comment is a “blatant lie” unless you automatically assume every Palestinians statement is the objective truth. If that’s the case, feel free to skip the rest of this post as there’s nothing I can say to make you re-evaluate your position.
I could just say “If you claim Palestinians have been kidnapped without any evidence or charges and held as hostage, please show me some evidence instead of unsubstantiated claims made by a party who has a vested interest in making false claims”. I thing that’s a valid claim, but as you can see, I do have a bit more to say. I’ve actually tried to check her statement when the video was posted earlier (not so I could argue about it, just to be informed).
First off, many of the Palestinians approved for release have been charged with serious crimes (some, though they might not have been release yet, as Israel is trying to release them from least serious to most serious). Even Al-Jazeera said most Palestinians released were charged with “small” crimes such as throwing rocks. So which is it - Are Palestinians being kidnapped without charges, or are they being charged with minor crimes? If some were kidnapped and some were legally arrested, would calling them “hostages” not be as inaccurate as calling them “prisoners”?
There’s only one Palestinian who said she was held without charges, not “many” as you claimed. It’s also worth noting she said she was “due to be released in October”, so I think it’s odd calling her a “hostage” (hostages usually don’t get released if a certain time has passed. that’s more correctly called a “detainee”).
Going from her age and arrest date, there’s only one 24yo female Palestinian who was detained in October and approved for release. I won’t try to write her name in English, as there’s 0% chance I’ll get it right, but in Hebrew it’s רגד נשאת צלאח אל פני (copy-paste the name to find her details, which can be translated via google translate).
Assuming that’s her, she was charged with “State security - other”, which is a general charge that can include espionage, giving information to the enemy, inciting violence and more. I will admit it’s a general charge, and the fact she was due to be released shows the Israeli state wasn’t able to make it stick.
So why did she say she was being held without a charge? Don’t know. Maybe in her mind “state security” isn’t a valid charge. Maybe she was exaggerating. Maybe she’s lying (yes, even oppressed people can lie). Maybe she was told her charge would be amended (that makes sense. As I said, “State security” is a general crime). Or maybe I found the wrong person. The point is, I did really try to find more information based on the video, and was unable to substantiate her claims. If you have any other source for similar claims, I’d be very interested to hear about them.
I live in Israel, and I’ll agree that a lot of times Palestinians are treated badly. I’m even prone to think the person in the video should have been freed after 3 months instead of 12. That said, there’s a far cry from that to saying Palestinians are kidnapped without evidence and being held without trial.
State security - OTHER is indeed not a real charge at all. If she was even told about this that is. Jailing someone for even 3 months for this is completely insane, but a YEAR ??
Afterwards you go on a journey dismissing this heinous crime as okay because apparently if you can read the charges every crime israel commits is now A Okay.
Don’t look up the Amnesty report damming israel for killing their hostages without process in jail. You’d have to do some insane mental gymnastics and you might not be ready for it.
State security - OTHER is indeed not a real charge at all.
What does that mean? It appears in the Israeli law, so it’s as “real” as any other charge. You could say it’s not a justifiable charge, but that wasn’t her claim. She didn’t say “I was arrested for an unjustifiable charge”, rather “I was arrested without charge”.
The word espionage exists as a charge, it is not in her charge.
I think that’s like saying “The word Murder exists as a charge, it is not in her charge” when talking about homicide. Not sure though.
Jailing someone for even 3 months without process is completely insane
Not “without process”, “without trail”. It’s not uncommon for prisoners being held 3 months only to have the charges dropped (regardless of nationality).
Afterwards you go on a journey dismissing this heinous court system as okay
“what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”. Not saying there aren’t any issues with the way Palestinians are treated in the Israeli court system, but you made some specific claims that I disagree with, and didn’t give any evidence.
Don’t look up the Amnesty report damming Israel for killing their hostages without process in jail.
Sorry, but I actually did try to look it up, and wasn’t able to. Could you please link to it?
The closet thing I was able to find is this, which refers to Palestinian prisoners as, well, prisoners. So even if it’s not the right report, it would seem Amnesty themselves don’t refer to Palestinian prisoners as “hostages”. Could we at least agree on that?
BTW, I didn’t read through the full report, but I find myself agreeing to most of the thing said (most weren’t news to me).
I’m not trying to say Israel did nothing wrong. Israel has done PLENTY of immoral things, and is currently doing plenty of immoral things. I’m saying that Israel isn’t some devil that wants to kill all Palestinians, and has zero regard for their lives (though some Israeli are). It’s extremely complicated.
Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied
Right, after calling me a “cartoon villain Nazi” I don’t really think this discussion can go anywhere, so I’ll go a bit off-topic and say something other readers might find interesting:
About a month ago, I spoke with a Palestinian work-buddy (yes, Palestinian Israelis work with Israeli Jews. In the the same jobs and with the same pay. Apartheid).
I asked him how he’s doing, as he’s not only living in Israel (and therefor a missile can hit his family as well as mine. Yet another area where Palestinian-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis are no different), he has the added bonus of fearing some psycho Jewish supremacist attacking him. He mentioned that the police are monitoring social media, and summoning for investigation Israeli-Palestinian influences who show support for Hamas, threaten them with charges and release them. Me, a cartoon villain Nazi bleeding heart liberal: “wow, I don’t think anyone in their right mind should support Hamas, but summoning people and releasing them without charges just to threaten them… yeah, that’s rough”.
He replied “No, you don’t understand, that wasn’t a criticism. I’m saying that’s a good thing. If that’ll help stop a replay of two years ago [social networks played a large part in encouraging Palestinians to riot. The riots caused a surge in anti-Palestinian violence among Jews], I’m all for it” . I’m still not sure how I feel about that.
Not saying every Palestinian is like him and every Jew is like me. Just… yeah, it’s complicated.
In the West Bank, the Israeli army has banned Palestinian farmers from reaching their land and groups of settlers are burning farmers’ crops. Jacobin spoke to olive growers about Israel’s draconian moves to destroy their livelihoods.
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