jeffwNov 17, 2023

The US is normalizing the cruelest mass killing method to stop bird flu

https://lemmy.world/post/8401294

The US is normalizing the cruelest mass killing method to stop bird flu - Lemmy.World

> Last year, I wrote a great deal about the rise of “ventilation shutdown plus” (VSD+), a method being used to mass kill poultry birds on factory farms by sealing off the airflow inside barns and pumping in extreme heat using industrial-scale heaters, so that the animals die of heatstroke over the course of hours. It is one of the worst forms of cruelty being inflicted on animals in the US food system — the equivalent of roasting animals to death — and it’s been used to kill tens of millions of poultry birds during the current avian flu outbreak. As of this summer, the most recent period for which data is available, more than 49 million birds, or over 80 percent of the depopulated total, were killed in culls that used VSD+ either alone or in combination with other methods, according to an analysis of USDA data by Gwendolen Reyes-Illg, a veterinary adviser to the Animal Welfare Institute (AWI), an animal advocacy nonprofit. These mass killings, or “depopulations,” in the industry’s jargon, are paid for with public dollars through a USDA program that compensates livestock farmers for their losses.

Show threadghostdoggtvNov 18, 2023
Hello aliens I’m a vegan and condemn this bullshit
Show threadSippy Cup
I’m not and I condemn this bullshit.
Nov 18, 2023 at 2:14amWeb
Show threadHerrBeterNov 18, 2023

“capitalism is more effective than alternatives”

Capitalism showing why it is more effective :

Show threadAniki 🌱🌿Nov 18, 2023
Then you’re a liar.
Show threadLuckyBoyNov 18, 2023
You do understand you’re not doing your cause any favours by being a fundamentalist right?
Show threaddangblingusNov 18, 2023
“I hate cruelty to animals” buys animal products at the grocery store
Show threadGiuseppeAndTheYetiNov 18, 2023

They’re not mutually exclusive. There’s plenty of ways to buy ethically sourced meat. Local butchers often buy pigs, chickens, and cows to butcher and cut for consumers near me. The cows typically have a central barn where they have clean bedding and recycling water troughs, get fed every morning (maybe night), and are allowed to freely roam in a pasture whenever they please.

I eat about the size of my palm of meat every day, so over the corse of a year i probably eat 5-6 chickens, a sixth of a pig, and an eight of a cow. At those numbers, it’s totally possible to make ethically sourced meat work as a business.

Show threadtriangle5106Nov 18, 2023
A substantial percentage of people have access to food systems that allow them to thrive on plants alone, freeing them from a dependence on animal products. For these individuals, is ‘ethically sourced meat’ even possible? That is to say: if we know that killing a living being is unnecessary, is it ethical to do it anyway?
Show threadassassin_aragornNov 18, 2023
The “ethical” food typically cost more – what if they can’t afford it? Would you give them financial aid, or does your preaching stop at words?
Show threadmaxNov 18, 2023
Rice veggies and beans is among the cheapest of foods.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023

It's also great depression food if you eat it regularly!

And anyway, not everybody can eat all the same foods. Plenty of people can't eat beans without shitting their brains out, for example. Likewise with a lot of vegetables, though then it depends on the type of vegetable.

Show threadkaseNov 19, 2023
Honestly. I absolutely agree that it’s a great cheap and healthy meal, and it’s one I eat just about every day. But it tends to be the only suggestion I see people make in these threads. Like don’t get me wrong, it’s a great suggestion, but c’mon
Show threadtriangle5106Nov 18, 2023

In case you missed it, I made a point of scoping this ethical question to people who do have the means to make choices with their consumption. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask people to make ethical choices provided that they are able.

I wouldn’t tell someone not to shoot an oncoming attacker because murder is unethical. In the same vein if someone has no choice in what they can eat, it would be ridiculous to tell them to try to ‘make ethical choices’.

Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
Shooting an oncoming attacker isn't murder. Not a great comparison.
Show threadmaxNov 19, 2023
So not the point though
Show threadtriangle5106Nov 19, 2023

That’s fine, you can pick your example of choice then.

Person A is presented with ethical dilemma X. They are in a position where they can freely make a choice.

Person B is presented with the same ethical dilemma X. They are not in a position where they are able to freely make a choice.

Person B is not obligated to try to pick the more ethical choice in dilemma X, since they are unable to freely make a decision.

Show threadGiuseppeAndTheYetiNov 18, 2023
It’s an interesting question that probably has an individualized answer depending on who you ask. In my opinion, we have afforded their species comforts that no other species has. So a humane death and respectful use of their body is ethical in my eyes. Most wild animals die from infection or starvation and we’ve protected our domesticated animals from that horrible drawn out death on ethical farms.
Show threadtriangle5106Nov 19, 2023
I’d argue the most ethical course of action is to halt the breeding of additional animals for the purpose of slaughter. We have complete control of the situation here: not all wild animals die gruesome deaths, but a livestock animal’s fate is decided far before they are even born. It feels a little less than ‘humane’.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
And that's why the truly realistic and humane people reduce their animal product consumption and try to limit it to local products.
Show threadtriangle5106Nov 19, 2023

I agree that this is probably realistic but still incredibly difficult to call ‘humane’.

Here’s a definition from a quick web search:

Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion.

Would you say that an individual who has the choice not to kill an animal and does it anyway is doing a ‘humane’ thing? Does it make difference where that killing happens?

Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
The only ethically sourced meat is meat that’s hunted to prevent overpopulation. There is no ethical way to make two animals breed with the intent to cut their offspring’s life short so that you can eat it.
Show threadFlamboNov 18, 2023
This is such a common phenomenon that it has a name: cognitive dissonance. If you already knew what that was, then your comment another example of it.
Show threadSippy CupNov 18, 2023

I hate capitalism, I still spend money

I can exist within society and still be critical of it, quite frankly I’m not sure how else one exists.

You’re aware of how we treat produce pickers right? How we treat the people who sew your clothes together? Or the people who assembled the device you’re reading this on?

Cruelty to life exists at every level. If you’ve ever eaten chocolate, or had coffee you’ve participated in slavery.

Show threadassassin_aragornNov 18, 2023

A vegan that can’t resist antagonizing others over their diet is being rather counterproductive. It’s an easier lifestyle choice to keep your mouth shut and not be snarky than it is to completely change your diet.

It begs the question, if this person criticizing me can’t make an easier lifestyle change than what they want me to do, why should I even listen?

(And I’m going to get replies that completely miss the point and continue to moralize at me)

Show threadSippy CupNov 18, 2023

Most vegans can’t keep up the lifestyle more than about 5-7 years, as health issues start to creep in.

The diet isn’t as nutritious as they claim, and there is no good replacement for animal fat and protein.

The meat industry has problems. Don’t get me wrong. But they’re not at the same scale most vegans will tell you they are, and as it happens herbivores are much better at turning plants in to energy than we are. Plus it’s not like we’re treating the actual humans picking tomatoes much better than we treat cattle.

Show threadkttnpunkNov 18, 2023
Gonna cite these stats or are you just parroting Joe Rogan? Obviously there’s a large amount of gastronomic variation among humans, some people can’t go vegan easily. But the idea meat has anything you can’t get from plants is absolutely a myth: I eat dark chocolate and nuts for iron, and B12 is in all sorts of shit from mushrooms to potatoes (and is easy to supplement with vitamin water or fortified cereal if not pills). And protein? Protein is the textbook example of this. Y’all just have some weird thing against broccoli and chickpeas.
Show threaddangblingusNov 18, 2023
So you’ll put your money where your mouth is and stop buying chicken then right? That’s how condemnation works.
Show threadILikeBoobiesNov 18, 2023
No it’s not, you’re confusing condemnation with boycott
Show thread4lanNov 18, 2023

That’s hilarious, people have no sense of personal responsibility whatsoever. Just look at COVID.

They use the argument that one person not eating meat won’t change anything. Ignoring the fact that they are literally deriving joy from suffering. It doesn’t have to be this way. I truly believe meat can be ethical, but when 99.8% of beef is factory farmed I do not have the option to ethically eat meat.

17 years meat free and every once in awhile I reconsider adding chicken to my diet. Then I see a post like this lol

Show threadtriangle5106Nov 19, 2023

I think ethical meat can only truly exist in theory (though with cell culture meat I suspect that that will change).

Anyway, I just wanted to say 17 years is a long time. Thanks for walking the talk. Not many people do.

Show threadAlecSadlerNov 18, 2023
I get my chicken (and beef) from small, local neighboring farms, directly. I don’t see the problem?
Show threadtriangle5106Nov 18, 2023
If your question is genuine, these small farms you speak of are still breeding animals with intent to slaughter them. At the end of the day, the only meaningful difference with a small farm is that you can probably shake the hand of the person who needlessly killed an animal. Can’t get that at those big mean factory farms, that’s for sure.
Show threadGarbanzoNov 18, 2023

intent to slaughter them

Assuming that’s the intent is an asshole move. What if the primary intent is to extract nutrition from land that is otherwise unproductive?

Show threadtriangle5106Nov 18, 2023

Is it not the intent? A farmer generally isn’t going to raise an animal for fun. That wouldn’t be profitable, and small farms are already difficult to make a living on.

I can entertain the idea that I could walk up to a farmer and ask them what their intent is, and they reply, “why it’s to extract nutrition from land that is otherwise unproductive, of course!”. But the end result is the same in either case regardless of stated intent: animals are being killed unnecessarily.

To be clear, none of this applies to people who rely on animal products to survive (e.g. people in the unproductive land you mentioned). I’m talking about people like myself (and likely many others here) who have access to supermarkets and other products of a globalized food system. Like Uncle Ben said, with great power privilege comes grwat responsibility.

Show threadqueermunist she/herNov 18, 2023
Land has more value than economic activity, such as natural habitat and biodiversity and recreation (all things farmers destroy lol)
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
Slaughtering animals as a means to extract value out of land is just as bad. It’s not the food making part that’s bad about animal agriculture, it’s the animal killing part that’s bad
Show threadassassin_aragornNov 18, 2023
And yet, you couldn’t resist the temptation to be aggressive and further turn off people to the idea of going meat free, vs trying to kindly convince them.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
These sort of vegan evangelists have no idea the damage they do to their cause.
Show threadMycoBroNov 18, 2023
I raise my own chickens. I love them very much. Some of them get eaten. I am very grateful to those. You don’t have to be a vegan to be a good person.
Show threadnegativeyodaNov 18, 2023

In their eyes you do.

Also a backyard chicken owner. My ladies live well

Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
You don’t necessarily have to be vegan to be a good person. I’m sure your chickens wouldn’t miss an egg or two every once in a while. It is pretty fucked up to claim that you love them, but also kill and eat them sometimes. Like, I love my cat, and because of that the idea of putting her dead body in my mouth makes me feel sick.
Show threadqueermunist she/herNov 18, 2023
Do you kill them?
Show threadMycoBroNov 18, 2023
Yes. I do. I have a separate small flock. I feed my family a proportion of our food over half that I grow, rise, and make myself. It would be impossible with out the protein from the chickens. And before anyone says some dumb shit to me, you do the math of your monoculture grown vegan food and if you still think my overall footprint is greater than yours, you are wrong.
Show threadqueermunist she/herNov 18, 2023

That must be really hard on you. I’ve killed animals before and that’s why I know I never want to be part of that and I never want to make anyone else do that for me. I know the statistics, people who kill animals are more likely to abuse drugs, self harm, hurt others, and commit suicide. When you kill animals you kill part of yourself. You have to, because our human instincts make us empathize with animals.

That’s why I’m vegan. I don’t pretend like consumer choices are going to save the environment - nothing either of us do as individuals matters on that front. I’m vegan because someone has to kill those animals and it fucks people up. Maybe you’re fine. I doubt it.

Seek help.

Show threadMycoBroNov 19, 2023
You are an insane person and a coward. You buy your food at a supermarket and are not able to comprehend the impact of your precious sou. As a matter of fact, your not even on my level really. You are probably a child. If you ever need help, call me.
Show threadqueermunist she/herNov 19, 2023
Oh honey.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
You're not improving your argument by making inane and disparaging comments like this.
Show threaddaltotronNov 19, 2023

what would you think of a backyard farm where chickens are only killed once they’re dead? or, are only basically killed when they would otherwise die from old age in the next, say, 2 months, to just put a random number on it? would only be killed when they are diseased, have cancer etc. Cause we already do that with people a good amount of the time, assisted suicide, hospice, whatever.

also what do you think of if we just ate like old people

Show threadqueermunist she/herNov 19, 2023

I’d honestly be okay if someone ate their 17 year old dog that they had to put down because she broke her hip or whatever; they lived a good and long life filled with love and were put down humanely. I think that’s weird as fuck and I sure as hell wouldn’t do it, but I don’t have a problem with it. I guess.

You have to realize how ridiculous the concept is, though, right?

Show threaddaltotronNov 19, 2023

Well yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous, but I wonder like. How much of that is cause we just don’t do it that often? It’s sort of like if you saw someone just fill up a cup with their spit and then drink the whole thing. It’s nasty, but is there anything really wrong with it? I don’t actually know, I don’t know anything about the biology and consumption of a large amount of spit, I imagine it has to be pretty alright since we’re mostly consuming spit all the time, but I don’t really know. Just an example, anyways.

Can I have dibs on your dog? Or, put another way, are you gonna finish that?

Show threadkaseNov 19, 2023
This comment was a rollercoaster ride. I don’t know how to feel. Maybe it’s time for me to go to sleep.
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023

“I love my chickens so much that I kill and eat them sometimes”

Remind me not to let you watch my dogs

Show threadMycoBroNov 19, 2023
Wow. I’m really fucking floored by y’all’s response. Where do you think your food comes from man? Seriously. I’m not being ugly, like you are, im trying to understand how you feel like you have less impact than I do. I am just able to take the responsibility for my own food
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
My food comes primarily from farms. I’m not saying I necessarily have less of an impact on anything than you, all I’m saying is that I don’t kill animals for food and I don’t pay for them to be killed.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
Where the fuck do you think meat comes from? Farms.
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
… I don’t eat meat.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
Okay?
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023
I’m genuinely confused about your comment. Why is it relevant that some farms produce meat? I don’t buy meat that’s produced at farms.
Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023
Because you made it a high horse statement to say that your food comes from farms. As though meat doesn't also come from farms.
Show threadstarman2112Nov 19, 2023

This website, man, y’all are incapable of having a normal conversation. I didn’t say it like it was some moral high ground that my food comes from farms, I answered the question they asked.

The high horse part was the part where I said I don’t kill animals, nor do I pay for them to be killed.

Show threadDrusasNov 19, 2023

You might want to consider that 1) this is the internet and tone does not carry over well and 2) almost all vegans who are vocal about being vegan are really pushy and holier-than-thou about it.

If you are not one of the ladder, then thank you. But it doesn't convey well on the internet.

Show threadMycoBroNov 19, 2023
You mocked me, man. It only hurts in the super small space that internet strangers can reach but it exists, regardless of how small. So. Bullshit.