Philip N CohenNov 14, 2023
This from Yossi Klein Halevi is so depressing. Ezra Klein picked him to represent the reasonable Israeli, and he considers the possibility of a minority Jewish state, even if peacefully attained, equivalent to the mass murder of Jews. I don't doubt most Israelis agree, but it means no peace ever.
#israel #palestine https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-yossi-klein-halevi.html
Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Yossi Klein Halevi

The Nov. 10, 2023, episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”

The New York Times
Show threadDave SpectorNov 14, 2023

@philipncohen
These two things are true and define the whole of the conflict, both said by Golda Meir:

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.”

and

“Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

Show threadPhilip N CohenNov 14, 2023
@Dhmspector I see, so you're saying you're ethnic group is better. Interesting point.
Show threadDave SpectorNov 14, 2023
@philipncohen nope, not at all. Just stating a point that is history has borne out for 2,000+ years that if Jews don’t defend themselves they’ll be killed. And that all that’s required for this to stop is people, in this case, many Arab nations is to decide to stop killing Jews. You know, maybe decide the future of their children was more important than endless generational hatred against people they don’t know but merely hate.
Show threadoatmeal

@Dhmspector

You’re talking about Europe’s Jews. Question is why the solution for those Jews was in Palestine? Without going into the territorialist vs the rest in the Zionist movement to deeply, Zionism didn’t see Palestine as the one and only solution for Eastern European Jews, at least not while Hertzl was alive.

Ethnic Jews lived as a minority in Palestine since the 7th century, and survived evidently, until first immigrants/refugees from Russia/Ukraine started exploring farming in tiny numbers. The fact that the two groups had nothing much in common and lived separately is even more interesting, but a different topic.

The point of many Palestinian nationalists is Jews of Palestine vs Jews from Europe. They don’t seem to mind the first, so it’s not religion that’s a problem, on the face of it.

@philipncohen

Nov 15, 2023 at 3:34pmWeb
Show threadDave SpectorNov 15, 2023

@oatmeal @philipncohen

no, I am talking about all Jews. But to your informed point — what about the Mizrahi — 80% of Israel’s Jewish population are the millions of Jews who lived in, were persecuted in, and then expelled from all over the Arab world. But I guess they don’t count or something.

This fucked up belief that the Jews are the only people in the world not allowed to have national sovereignty, be allowed to live in peace, or even defend themselves is really telling.

Show threadoatmealNov 15, 2023

@Dhmspector

This narrative of persecution of Arab Jews has no support in research. Again, highly recommend reading prof Sadoun’s research (at YBZ research center of North Africa Jewry). I can paste later some slides from a recent lecture with some data on who left, from where, and why, in Hebrew though.

In many places the local authorities tried to prevent Jews from leaving. Either because of long lasting relationships, or in fact, to prevent them from migrating to Israel and further aiding the Zionist movement’s growing demographic advantage.

@philipncohen

Show threadPhilip N CohenNov 15, 2023
@Dhmspector @oatmeal ethnically defined national sovereignty is useful for mobilizing national liberation movements and yet inconsistent with democracy in governing states. For Jews and everyone else.