Is there any christian religions that don't believe in space?

https://lemmy.world/post/7479134

Is there any christian religions that don't believe in space? - Lemmy.World

So I have a born again christian family member in their mid twenties who stated with complete confidence that there is a dome in the sky called the firmament and beyond it is where heaven is. She believes space doesn’t exist and rockets just blow up because the bible said so. She is not the brightest and normally I would let this sort of nonsense go but I work in aerospace and have multiple pieces of hardware in space so she is either calling me ignorant or a malicious agent for the devil purposely lying for her so I got pretty annoyed. I can’t find anything about this dome in a google search about religion and I suspect she ended up on a flat-earth YouTube channel that twisted a line in the bible to fit their beliefs and didn’t actually get it from her church. Are there any major or minor religions, christian or other that believe space is a lie and only god is outside our atmosphere?

I’m curious if anyone else is able to provide an example here. Personally, I grew up in an extremely right-wing, very isolated, very culty version of the southern baptist church. I was around young-earthers, anti-vaxxers, anti-evolution folks, dinosaur/man co-existence, believing black people are black because they’re cursed—all sorts of crazy whackadoodle shit. I never once met someone who didn’t believe in space. I think you’re right that this was a YouTube Fact™ that she picked up somewhere.
Yeah, I came from the same background. Dinosaurs bones are a test put there by the devil to make believers doubt the young earth shit, the asteroid belt was originally the planet that Lucifer dwelt on, and God destroyed it when he cast him out, and that’s why it’s there, all kinds of shit. Never had someone tell me space wasn’t real, though. I’m sure a lot of them had a geocentric model stuck in their brains, or maybe didn’t believe in existence outside of the solar system, but the shepherds needed the star to guide them to Bethlehem, so they at least believed in space.

It’s a thing, but even the creationists debunk it.

The summary is that, ancient people did conceive of the sky to be solid, but the Bible itself never says so in unequivocal language.

One could interpret the word used for “firmament” as being synonymous with the atmosphere and interstellar space and the texts still make sense.

creation.com/is-the-raqiya-firmament-a-solid-dome

Is the raqiya' ('firmament') a solid dome?

Is the raqîa‘ (‘firmament’) a solid dome?

The understanding of the world also changed during the immense time of writing

The idea of a firmament is definitely a thing and has been for thousands of years. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

I’ve heard about it all my life from mainstream Christian churches too.

Firmament - Wikipedia

I guess the realistic equivalent might be our local group. We can reach galaxies within it, but everything outside is moving away too fast for us to reach?
I always had the impression that firmament was synonymous with atmosphere for some reason. I’m not sure where I got that idea.

there’s been a lot of ways of rectifying what’s obviously true and scriptures over the years.

which is amusing because they’ll do anything to not admit their scripture-writers were wrong. It was written by people with a fixed- and flawed- understanding of the world they lived in. (We too have a fixed and flawed understanding, in point of fact. Its a bit better than theirs, mind, but it’s still flawed.)

“yeah. they believed that. they were wrong” isn’t really all that damaging to the over all story. But they think it is.

WDYM we also have a fixed understanding? I’m as fluid as science.

History is full of great and not so great scientists who just couldn’t accept a paradigm shift that totally changed their field of science.

Germ theory for example was a big one that got rejected by most of the medical scientists and professionals for decades.

I mean our conception is fixed to what we currently know. (Or “know”) in the broad scheme of things it would be rather rare to come across something that changes your fundamental understanding, right.

Looking back we can see that a lot of what people thought was straight up stupid. like barnacle geese… coming from… barnacles

But an observer looking back from far in the future at us… will likely see some of our beliefs as ridiculous.

Barnacle goose myth - Wikipedia

Isn’t that based on the Ancient Greek theory of Celestial Spheres
Let it go, friend. Don’t let a moron get you riled up. If it helps, just take comfort in the fact that the majority of the problems in this person’s life will be self-created, but they will be too goddamn stupid to realize it or take the actions in their power to correct them.
“Creationism” has some weird ideas about what space is. Though I will admit, some of those ideas would be pretty cool for a fantasy/scifi.

I yeah, this:

could be a cool premise for world building. Instead of ‘they live in caves’ they just live below the nominal ‘surface’

actually the world building I’d like to see in a fantasy book is day/night elves (and sundry other creatures) on a planet where the axial tilt is 90 degrees.

It really is a great premise for fiction, especially if you replace the pillars with 4 elephants and a turtle.
So do we live directly on top of the brown molar in this image?
friendly reminder that these people vote
That was not friendly at all. This reminder is quite destressing.
I feel distressed, tbh…
Lmao, well that's embarrassing. Serves me right for going online after taking a sleeping pill.
Friendly reminder that depending upon where they live, their vote may be worth more than yours.
In 6,000 year creationism, some sects believe there was a physical firmament (basically a shell of ice around the earth), but that it fell during Noah’s flood.

Interesting, I’ve not heard of this shell of ice, and I believe in a young earth. I have heard though of a similar hypothesis based in Genesis 2:5-6 which proposes that it did not rain before Noah’s flood and that plants were kept watered by a heavy mist and/or extremely humid atmosphere. Acoording to this idea, that excess water in the air and ground would’ve been all condensed by God as part of the flood.

I’m not sure I entirely agree with the hypothesis, and I do not believe it is essential biblical knowledge so I don’t concern myself with it, but I have heard it before.

So. the firmament is a thing.

Mostly these days, it’s considered to be allegory, as apposed to firm fact. but people- typically Young Earth Creationist types- will insist the english-translated bible is the absolute word of god meant to be taken absolutely literally. (and will reject things like aging and dino bones because it was made to look that way. for some reason.)

there are some middle-ground type people who espoused a belief that there was a solid shell of ice- the firmament- and that it melted to create the cataclysm written of Noah’s flood to explain why it wasn’t there, but was there before.

They, uh, also tend to go in for a flat earth.

Firmament - Wikipedia

Watch out people!! Found another agent of Satan!! Let us pray to Baby Jesus!! 🙏
I like to picture Jesus in a tuxedo tshirt, cause it says like, I wanna be formal but I'm here to party too. I like to party, so I like my Jesus to party.
But he grew up?
Don’t you be judging my faith 😤
So, uh, the Empyrean behind the firmament, made of fire/light, occupied by beings so holy, they are made of pure light; christianity is still a sun god sect?
But then why don’t they put 2 and together and think the water fell off the sides when the ice melted
So she insists she believes the word says the world is spherical but that there is a dome in the sky. I think she got bored halfway through the video after they stopped talking about the stuff from the bible. I see that the firmament is real but as someone who was raised catholic I assumed all religions agreed that it was a metaphysical barrier between heaven and earth. After reading through the comments here I feel like she probably got this from YouTube/ticktock and not from her church.
So she’s reenacting the middle ages? A little LARP is fun.
People in the middle ages weren't that dumb.
That's like a girl in the middle ages not believing that milk comes from a cow, even tho she's milking a cow every day.
Medieval people knew that the Earth wasn’t flat. Them thinking it was flat is a myth that was made during the age of enlightenment to make Catholics look dumb, IIRC.

You can’t reason anyone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. She believes this because it’s a follow-up on the “the bible is literally true” position she has taken as an apparently core part of her personality.

Unless you’re looking for a fight, consider just ignoring this person. Otherwise, call her out and make her call you a liar in front a crowd.

I can’t find anything about this dome in a google search

I gotta question your methodology here a bit, because just googling “firmament” will get you quite a lot of results and you don’t have to read very far into the actual Bible to come across the term (depending on the version of the Bible you read, different translations use different terms, sometimes I’ve seen “vault” used instead) its probably going to be right there on the first page of Genesis.

Now the Bible doesn’t exactly do a great job of describing the firmament. Coming up with an actual model for for the heavens and the earth kind of fell to various scholars over the years trying to make sense of it.

In general, if you take it literally, the firmament is normally interpreted as a sort of solid structure somewhere up above the sky that separates heaven and a whole bunch of water from the rest of creation and probably more or less resembles a dome above a flat earth. The exact structure of all of that will vary quite a bit depending on which denomination and scholars you listen to.

Even the word firmament should kind of clue you in that it’s supposed to be kind of solid, you can really go down a linguistic rabbit hole through all manner of English, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. words with this but for the most part you’ll get the impression that you’re supposed to believe there is some sort of physical barrier there

Most of the mainstream sects have adopted somewhat less-literal interpretations over the years because obviously the science doesn’t support that interpretation at all.

But of course there are a whole lot of absolutely wacky Christian denominations (all of them are at least a bit wacky, but some really go the extra mile into the heart of crazytown) and even in the less-insane denominations some individuals pick and choose and come up with their own batshit interpretations of things.

Off the top of my head, I don’t know which sects stick to a literal interpretation of it being a solid dome, but I’m absolutely sure they’re out there, but most of them are probably not very mainstream, most of them are probably independent churches not affiliated or only loosely affiliated with any larger organization. And a lot of people who believe it are probably picking it up outside of any organized church and either coming up with their own interpretations or getting it from some wackadoo on the internet.

Trying to talk sense into her is probably an exercise in futility and I would not have even the faintest idea of how to go about doing that. If you do want to learn more about her specific beliefs though, a good place to start is probably going right to the source and figuring out which church she goes to and where she’s getting her info- what websites, books, YouTube channels, etc. and the best way to do that is probably just to ask her. Don’t try to argue with her and convince her she’s wrong, you’re not going to get anywhere, just get some links and recommendations, she’s probably going to view it as a chance to convert you and born again types are all about that, she’ll probably dump a whole bunch on you.

Now the Bible doesn’t exactly do a great job of describing the firmament.

It simply doesn’t describe it at all.

Also, the Bible does not even try to be a lecture on physics, or astronomy, or an engineer’s manual…

Bible does not even try to be a lecture on physics, or astronomy, or an engineer’s manual…

And yet we have all met Christians like OP has who try to use it to guide their understanding of the physical world.

Christians who believe the earth is six thousand years old. Who think the whole earth flooded. Who believe that women were made from men…

There are Christians who will excommunicate you if you suggest the Bible isn’t entirely and literally true.

To be clear I couldn’t get a hit on a religion believing it is a solid impassable dome in the sky. I got hits on flat earther crap that sadly I knew about because another family member was a full fledged flat earther… (These are all in-laws BTW). I also found the bible definition which only states that the firmament is a barrier between heaven and earth. I am mostly just trying to figure out where she got this nonsense from and I suspect it was going down a rabbit hole on YouTube that led to a flat earth video using the bible as evidence of the flat earth. She has a short attention span so she probably stopped paying attention after the part where they said the sky is a dome because she said the earth is round.
Is she on TikTok? There’s a lot of conspiracy theorists growing followings on there under the guise of religion, health, nutrition, etc.

How do birds fly inside a solid barrier?

Genesis 1:20, KJV:

“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.”

A fish bowl in a solid barrier, how do fish swim in it?

This was roughly the early cosmology of Judaism, but even by Jesus’s time was being abandoned. For example, the Greeks and Romans were familiar enough with both lunar eclipses and the Earth being round that the generally accepted explanation for lunar eclipses was that the Earth was eclipsing the sun and casting a shadow on the moon, which we know was popular because in De Rerum Natura Lucretius appeals to keep more of an open mind as that might not be the only explanation (meaning it was commonly enough endorsed that it was nearly considered the sole explanation in Lucretius’s circles).

This may even connect to the description of the “crucifixion darkness” in the earliest copies of Luke where it is explained as being caused by the sun being eclipsed. That language is changed in later versions, and the language of ‘eclipse’ was criticized by early church commentators given that solar eclipses were known to be impossible on a full moon (such as Passover) and only last around 8 minutes.

But what’s often overlooked was that being written after 50 CE, visible nighttime lunar eclipses whose previous Saros cycle eclipses were during the daytime in the 30s CE would have been able to be trivially calculated by astronomers of the time.

Lunar eclipses take 3 hours, and have a 1 in 6 chance of occurring on Passover. We even know there was a daytime lunar eclipse on Passover of 33 CE, whose subsequent Saros cycle eclipse was visible in both Judea and Greece before any of the Synoptic gospels were written.

So not only would some of the anti-firmament cosmology known by the era of the New Testament, it’s quite possible that there was even originally text reflecting both knowledge the earth was round and that lunar eclipses are caused by the earth eclipsing the sun, but it may have been subsequently removed because later editors failed to realize the event was not an eyewitness testimony but a calculated celestial event and thus dismissed it as erroneously describing an impossible solar eclipse.

TL;DR: Your family member is nearly going pre-NT with the commitment to that cosmology there.

Amazingly thorough ! Nice ! I’ve encountered many flerfs talking about the firmament but never really wondered where that idea could have come from.
The bible apparently.
This is dipshit flatearther stuff. Ask them about the ice wall around the disc of the earth next time you see them.
These are old beliefs from before the bible even existed. I’m pretty sure it was included in the bible though, but you know, even as a christian you can’t take everything that’s in the bible seriously
Does she have a priest /pastor? Maybe have a sit down with that person without your family member present and see what their thoughts are. If that priest /pastor understands that yes space exists have them talk to your relative.

Like others have said, this is flat earther stuff. A lot of Christian evangelical types question things like the Big Bang and how old the universe/Earth really are, but afaik there isn’t an entire religion with this as a belief.

I used to work at a space museum and we would get Christan folks who would sometimes argue with us over the number that was shown on the sign telling them the age of our Moon rock, but never that the earth was flat. If that is a thing, it must be new.

Questioning The Big Bang is somewhat ironic, as it was initially Georges Lemaître, a physicist and Catholic Priest who was the outlier.
Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia

That’s why I specifically said Evangelicals.

Here is just one example:

Deutsch gained notoriety in late 2005 and early 2006, when it was reported that he had instructed a NASA website designer to add the word “theory” after every occurrence of the phrase Big Bang.[1] In his memo to the website designer, Deutsch wrote that the Big Bang is “not proven fact; it is opinion… It is not NASA’s place, nor should it be to make a declaration such as this about the existence of the universe that discounts intelligent design by a creator… This is more than a science issue, it is a religious issue.” The memo also noted that the AP Stylebook calls for the usage of the phrase “Big Bang theory”.[1]

Prior to the 2004 Bush/Cheney presidential campaign, Deutsch had been a student at Texas A&M University. His NASA résumé falsely asserted that he had a B.A. degree in journalism, but in February 2006 a blogger at The Scientific Activist discovered that he had never graduated.[2] This was subsequently confirmed by Texas A&M, and Deutsch resigned from NASA.[3] Deutsch later returned to Texas A&M and completed his degree that year.[4]

James E. Hansen, the director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and several other career NASA scientists and public affairs officials had been interviewed by The New York Times in January 2006. In these interviews, they complained about “intensifying efforts by political appointees in NASA, including Deutsch, to control more closely” the content of their public statements.[5] Deutsch, speaking to the New York Times, gave his opinion that Hansen had exaggerated the threat of global warming. He denied lying to NASA about his college degree.[5]

George Deutsch - Wikipedia

Didn’t they just find things that suggest it’s 4 million years older? Heh.
Wouldn’t have mattered.
Yes flat earthers.

I work with one, we work for an airline…

Honestly he is a very nice guy you just have to be careful about which topics to talk with him about unless you want a very nice conversation about some very off the wall ideas

You’re more patient than me. I couldn’t help myself bit to constantly talk about airlines, how the fly, shortest routes, planes going over the Arctic Circle since it’s faster, etc…
He is truly a pretty good guy to work with. He is on time, works hard, and doesn’t cause drama. Compared to a lot of folks I work with he is a gem. Well all know he is wako but he doesn’t try to proselytize. So it is pretty chill honestly. No need to poke the Bear