TokenBoomerPalestinians plead ‘stop the bombs’ at UN meeting but Israel insists Hamas must be ‘obliterated’
Resol van LemmyHamas hides in civilian places. In return, Israel bombs said civilian places, killing everyone but mostly uninvolved innocent folks, most of those are children. And yet when they try to leave, Hamas won’t let them, and Israel bombs the exit anyway.
I feel like these two guys are secretly allied to commit genocide or something.
And yes, I’m waiting for the downvotes to come in. I don’t even care anymore. Just press the button.
Isreal has been shown to have bombed targets that were completely civilian in nature with no reported Hamas activity.
If Hamas is in every bombed civilian home then we must deduce that it is one of the biggest armies in the world.
The zionists supporters claim that Hamas somehow survive the blasts and move on to other human sheilds.
CileTheSaneSo the blasts are ineffective then and only serve to kill bystanders?
well yes, but blame Hamas for hiding in the vast cave network while we target apartment buildings
It reminds me when my mother threw a set of iron keys at my face and I quickly shut the door between us so they hit and ruined the door (instead of my face) and I was scolded for ruining the door.
Normal people just say “why the hell did she toss the keys at you??”
DarkGamerThey're still effective enough to kill, should we give them a pass because their weapons are inferior?
Just because Hamas is punching up rather than punching down like Israel is with asymmetrical warfare, it doesn't make them the good guys. In this case, the underdog is a terrorist organization who commits crimes against humanity and intentionally targets civilians.
In this case, the underdog is a terrorist organization who commits crimes against humanity and intentionally targets civilians.
Correct. And the big dog is…
Do you have any sources of this?
This article says that Israel shut off the electricity, not bomb purely civilian targets.
Did I miss that in the source?
In 2014, during the Gaza War, the Gaza Power Plant was hit several times by Israeli shelling.
That would be civilian infrastructure.
In 2014, during the Gaza War
Yeah that was during a war, though. That’s completely allowed in the playbook or are you going to say that literally anything Israel did in retaliation is a “civilian target”. Because if that’s the case, your definitions and understanding of this subject matter is biased and objectively wrong.
Also, by the same virtue, Palestine has attacked civilian targets as well. You either say both sides are causing this conflict or neither are. You can’t always blame Israel when Palestine is doing the exact same thing.
You asked a question. I gave you the answer. You don’t like the answer and for some reason believe you have to defend your presumptions. You don’t. It’s okay to be wrong. That’s how we learn. Also, I like your name.
Aww sweaty you don’t have to try so hard. It’s okay, we’ve all looked dumb on the internet on e or twice 😂
I admire your ability to admit you were wrong. It takes a mature person to admit that.
And you’re downvoting my comments? 😂😂😂
You called me sweaty. That was mean. I have a gland problem. 😭😭😭
Lol I can smell the anxiety sweat from here 😂
You alright?
Israel isnt retaliating to shit, they created this mess. the Palestinian militia groups locked in the open air prison of Gaza are the ones “retaliating”.
You do know that 44% of the Gazan population is 14 or younger, right? Every shelling is killing kids, shutting off the electricity is killing kids. How many children do you have to shell in “self-defense”? Fuck off with that, Palestine is not doing “The exact same thing”.
I recall a small little, tincy wincy attack from this terrorist group called “Hamas” that started this. Israel is no saint but Hamas, and Palestine supporting it, is 100% to blame for this. Sorry to remind you about that massacre.
This is a take that ignores a full 100 years of history - including the displacement of the entire Palestinian arab population. “Israel is no saint” - they are literally colonists engaging in a genocide of the Palestinians.
By that logic, do all countries have a century long statute of limitations to engage in vengeful warfare because of “past conflicts”. Would you justify the massacre of white people because of slavery? Or would you allow native Americans to kill thousands because their ancestors were pushed away from their “land”? You do realize that every single country has fought for its territory - no flag is without sin.
I’m sorry your side isn’t willing to budge on this issue but you can’t engage in this discourse without a nuanced understanding of real history and honest critical thinking. You’re letting others tell you what to feel and look stupid for it.
By that logic, do all countries have a century long statute of limitations to engage in vengeful warfare because of “past conflicts”. Would you justify the massacre of white people because of slavery
This is a false equivalency, Israel is actively engaging in settler-colonialism and genocide. These people who have been expelled from their home 76 years ago are actively suffering for it, it’s a living memory. Are you comfortable letting “your side” use Hamas’s attack on Israel as a justification to engage in ethnic cleansing ?
Or would you allow native Americans to kill thousands because their ancestors were pushed away from their “land”?
I would actually support giving land back to native Americans in the US/canada. If they started attacking white people to take land back, i wouldn’t use that as an excuse to decimate their population. It’s possible to have a nuanced understanding of a situation, and still not side with genocide.
You do realize that every single country has fought for its territory - no flag is without sin.
And it’s possible to recognize and be critical of that, while also being critical of an ethnostate that is actively engaging in the decimation of the Palestinians that used to live there.
I’m sorry your side isn’t willing to budge on this issue but you can’t engage in this discourse without a nuanced understanding of real history and honest critical thinking. You’re letting others tell you what to feel and look stupid for it.
Seriously? It sounds like you’re projecting an idea of “my side” onto me. Im sorry you aren’t able to engage in nuanced discourse without projecting and attacking my intelligence.
This is a false equivalency, Israel is actively engaging in settler-colonialism and genocide. These people who have been expelled from their home 76 years ago are actively suffering for it, it’s a living memory. Are you comfortable letting “your side” use Hamas’s attack on Israel as a justification to engage in ethnic cleansing ?
When you say “actively engaging in genocide”, are you referring to the recent attacks this month or in the past? Palestine has not made it secret that they want to wipe Israelis from the face of this earth. I genuinely don’t understand your point here.
I would actually support giving land back to native Americans in the US/canada. If they started attacking white people to take land back, i wouldn’t use that as an excuse to decimate their population. It’s possible to have a nuanced understanding of a situation, and still not side with genocide.
At least you’re consistently dumb. I just wish that blissful dumbness would bleed over into defending Israel from time to time.
And it’s possible to recognize and be critical of that, while also being critical of an ethnostate that is actively engaging in the decimation of the Palestinians that used to live there.
Again, Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of this earth. Why is it okay for Palestine to do it and not Israel? I find it fascinating that you give so much leeway to one country, but not another even though you’re using the same parameters to judge one and justify the other.
Seriously? It sounds like you’re projecting an idea of “my side” onto me. Im sorry you aren’t able to engage in nuanced discourse without projecting and attacking my intelligence.
I don’t think you’re just stupid. I think you’re an actual horrible person to dismiss an entire country and its people because somebody told you one side is good and one side is bad.
Geez, can you have a conversation without engaging in ad-hominem attacks? You’ve really thrown civilty out the window here.
Again, Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of this earth. Why is it okay for Palestine to do it and not Israel?
Of course Palestine wants to wipe out Israel, they fucked the Palestinians 10 times sideways and displaced the whole population. But does anyone seriously think Palestine is capable of wiping out israel? I dont think either is OK, but how much suffering can you lay on a whole population before retaliation is justified? Why shouldn’t the Palestinians hate Israel when it’s creation led to all of them losing their homes?
At least you’re consistently dumb. I just wish that blissful dumbness would bleed over into defending Israel from time to time.
Damn, fuck off asshole. You have no idea how much leeway I’ve given Israel until now. I’ve defended Israel, and I just can’t anymore. Israel created a mess, and their only solution is to annihilate the people they displaced?
I don’t think you’re just stupid. I think you’re an actual horrible person to dismiss an entire country and its people because somebody told you one side is good and one side is bad.
I started looking into the history of the situation and my opinion changed. I’m not dismissing the Israeli people, but I’m not going to support their retalliation either. I’m a horrible person for that? Wouldn’t that make you a horrible person for supporting Israel’s genocide of Palestinians? Nobody “told me what to think” you smug prick, can you stop projecting for one conversation?
I wonder if Hamas would exist if Israel treated the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future… including sovereignty of their borders.
Ant this is the thing no one is saying. Yes what they did was bad but I can understand why they exist. Freedom fighters or terrorist just depends on your point of view.
I wish I could give you more upvotes. This is the material reason for this conflict going back to British occupation.
Hamas might not exist, but unless you can travel back in time, that doesn’t answer the question what to do about Hamas today.
Hamas is a terror organization, they’ve been in power in the Gaza strip for the last 17 years, they terrorize the Palestinian population in Gaza, and they desperately need the conflict to stay alive so they don’t lose relevance.
As things are today, treating the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future is a direct threat to Hamas. That’s absolutely not to say that those things shouldn’t be done - it’s just to say that these things pose a direct threat to Hamas’s position of power in Gaza. That’s why Hamas reroutes international help and keeps it from reaching the Palestinian population, why they stage terrorist attacks against Israel, why they torture and murder “collaborators,” why they place their infrastructure in schools and mosques and hospitals, why they use Palestinians as human shields.
So lacking the option of traveling back in time and preventing the creation of Hamas, what should be done in a world where Hamas exists, has been in power for many years, sand has no intention of ever ceasing its terrorism?
Hamas today could be a thing of the past, or as close to irrelevant as possible, if Israel would put in the effort to help Palestinians. Maybe help Palestinians realize that they could have a better chance with Israel than Hamas and that peace is possible.
This would take Israel being the “bigger man” to use a turn of phrase, but every chance they’re presented with just like right now, they instead choose Zionism and indiscriminately murder civilians.
if Israel would put in the effort to help Palestinians
That’s sounds good.
What would that look like?
As a reference: from 2014 to 2020, the UN spent $4.5 billion in Gaza. NGOs have poured in hundreds of millions, have opened schools, have financed hospitals, have distributed aid. USAID has spent billions of dollars, the European Union spent hundreds of millions of Euros just to put in reliable water infrastructure. Just recently, Israel agreed to open the borders to Gaza so a number of Palestinians could work in Israel and live in Gaza.
But Hamas has been intercepting foreign aid, has seized donated supplies, has interfered with aid workers, has used schools and hospitals financed by the UN and NGOs as terrorist headquarters, as weapons caches, as launching sites for missiles, as prisons and torture sites to hold, torture and murder opponents.
So what, specifically, would you suggest?
It seems that the only solution to the problem is to kill innocent men, women, and children!
Gotta violently kill a family of twenty so we can take out one or two hidden Hamas fighters!
I want to make this very clear, the hatred that Israel is exhibiting to the Palestinians, is exactly the same as the hatred that Hitler exhibited towards their people during WWII. Difference is, everybody is cheering on the Nazis this time.
So you’re assuming that asking for a qualified answer about what should be done to “help the Palestinians” is the equivalent of “cheering on the Nazis?”
You asked a rhetorical question. I also did not say you cheered on the Nazi’s or anything of the sort.
See, that’s the problem, though: you’re already presuming that people who don’t simply go along cheering facile, generic solutions like “why don’t the Israelis just help the Palestinians” - as if things were that easy and as if that thought just had never occurred to a single person in the past 70 years of murderous conflict - must be insincere.
So for the record: no, I’m being sincere. Bombing innocent civilians in Gaza is very obviously objectionable, and indiscriminate bombing is a war crime.
At the same time, I can acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization which just committed the largest terrorist attack in the history of Israel, committing unspeakable atrocities and murdering hundreds and hundreds of civilians in Israel.
So with that premise established: what would be some realistic ways for Israel to help Palestinians in a way that would make Hamas go away and end that particular threat for Israel. Because that’s the proposition: that the terrorist threat from Hamas could be ended if Israel only helped the Palestinians instead of bombing them, correct?
Go on reddit or facebook and you’ll see exactly what I am talking about.
Explain to me exactly how bombing and killing innocent civilians is going to stop a terrorist group? You kill a shit ton of innocent people to take out a few of the bad guys. You’re not understanding that the point isn’t about helping the Palestinians, it’s about not fucking recklessly killing them to stop terrorists.
It honestly sounds to me like IDS are terrorists themselves, is that not what terrorists do? To be a terrorist is to strike terror into a civilian populous, and that is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Blowing up fucking schools, hospitals, and homes is not how you stop a terrorist group, it’s how you become one.
I find it absolutely absurd that western countries could do this today and would be heavily criticized, but Israel gets a pass because “it’s god’s land”. Christianity (the religion that many americans falsely claim to follow) does not give two shits about Israel or Jerusalem, that is the JEWS land, not Christian’s land.
This is what happens when you let religion off of a leash, needless bloodshed and suffering. Christians did the same to Jews and Muslims during the crusades, this is a situation that is no different today, that’s exactly what a Jihad is, a " holy war".
You wrote a lot of things, but I still don’t see an answer to the question there.
Is that because you don’t have an answer?
You’re asking a question that is totally unrelated to the topic. It almost feels like you don’t actually understand how conversations work, I’m being genuine here.
The situation at hand right here, right now, is not about helping the Palestinians, it is about not killing them. Once that hurdle is crossed, then we can figure out how to help them.
I fail to see the point in trying to help them if you are actively blowing them up to stop a terrorist organization, you should do that before you do anything else, it’s literally a prerequisite.
You are asking a question that is totally unrelated to the topic.
Because you wrote a post that was totally unrelated to my question, and totally unrelated to the entire conversation before it.
The entire penises of the conversation was that Hamas might not even exist today if Israel had only chosen to help the Palestinians.
If your entire reply to that topic can be summed up as “well, too late for that,” then I agree with you.
I fail to see the point in trying to help them if you are actively blowing them up to stop a terrorist organization, you should do that before you do anything else, it’s literally a prerequisite.
How do you feel that Israel should have reacted to the 10/7 attacks?
I’m going to ignore the first part because once again, your question is entirely unrelated to the topic.
How do you feel that Israel should have reacted to the 10/7 attacks?
Uh, by not blowing up civilians homes? Doing a better job at controlling their borders? Partner with the dozens of countries you are allied with? Yes, you are not going to stop every attack, but why retaliate to a terrorist attack by attacking a country’s civilians who do not even have anything to do with the terrorists?
Put yourself in the Palestinian’s shoes, say your country has a terrorist group that attacks another country, that country retaliates, they proceed to blow up your fucking house with your whole family in it, because there were terrorists who forced your family to allow them to quarter at the threat of death, how would you feel about that?
If you tell me that you somehow cannot sympathize with that, there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a person.
So your tangible answers are:
- Doing a better job at controlling their borders.
- Partner with the dozens of countries you are allied with.
That’s your answer of how a nation should respond to a terrorist attack that killed 1,400 civilians, where the attached committed the most inhumane, vile atrocities?
Put yourself in the Israeli civilians’ shoes, say 1,400 of your fellow citizen - men, women, children, babies - have just been murdered by a terrorist organization that rules an adjacent territory in the most gruesome way: decapitated, shot, bludgeoned, burned to death. How would you feel about that?
And how would you feel about it if then somebody told you "well, why don’t you just control the borders a little bit better and partner with your allies?’
I’ll tell you exactly how I’d feel about that, I’d feel that you shouldn’t kill innocent people from the countries that the terrorists hail from in response, because I’m not a shitty human being. Unfortunately I don’t think I can say the same for you in good conscience.
You have avoided the main topic to try and make a point that is still unrelated to the topic at hand. We are not talking about helping Palestinians. I don’t know how you still don’t get it. You’re intentionally ignoring it and it is really starting to piss me off.
You think that bombing hospitals, schools, and homes is somehow helping the Palestinians, that is all I’ve gathered from you. If you genuinely think this, you’re insane. Those are war crimes, you cannot kill noncombatants even if it means taking out a few enemies. If you needed help with receiving food and clean water, how is someone killing you going to help with that?
Israel has shown that it does not care about the rules of conflict or setting a rule of peace and prosperity, they are no different than any of the other blood hungry countries like Russia and the US. If they are not tried for the crimes they have committed against Palestine, that should tell you everything you need to know about the world’s governments.
And no, those are not all of the answers, but they are a START. If need be, martial law can be enforced until the situation is under control, there are measures that can be taken for situations like this. There are 193 countries currently in the UN, you mean to tell me not a single one can lift a finger to help out with this situation?
I’ll tell you exactly how I’d feel about that, I’d feel that you shouldn’t kill innocent people from the countries that the terrorists hail from in response, because I’m not a shitty human being.
“I think this shouldn’t be done” is a non-answer.
You have avoided the main topic to try and make a point that is still unrelated to the topic at hand. We are not talking about helping Palestinians. I don’t know how you still don’t get it. You’re intentionally ignoring it and it is really starting to piss me off.
You’re the one who has made exactly zero suggestions about how to stop Hamas.
Have you lost even one single word about Hamas mass murdering civilians? Have you lost one single word about Hamas torturing people, beheading people, burning people alive?
No?
Why not?
Is that just acceptable to you? Are you just a shitty human being?
Or is that, to you, just something terrorists do, so we should ask, collectively, just shrug it off?
If you genuinely think this, you’re insane.
Why is stopping Hamas worth the lives of Palestinian children? I’d say it flat out isn’t and bombing the fuck out of Gaza was definitely not the right way to retaliate.
Unless maybe you actually think all Palestinians are Hamas. Seems to be a pretty common sentiment for shills these days
You have no idea what you are talking about
Lol ok bud
What would that look like?
Not blockade the Gaza strip, for one. Israel killed Gaza's economy in 2006, keeps limiting the imports of basic goods and what we're seeing is the result. Hamas stopped rocket attacks for over a year (late 2012 to early 2014) when promised the lifting of the blockade as part of a ceasefire.
Gaza people are, by Israel's own admission, allowed fewer calories than they need to not starve to death.
Not blockade the Gaza strip, for one.
How would that make Hamas go away?
Egypt and Israel are blockading the Gaza strip because it’s under the control of a terrorist organization.
If the question is “how could Israel help the Palestinians in a way that would make the threat if Hamas disappear,” how are you envisioning that this would happen if Israel ended the blockade?
Well, the cause of the current state of rocket attacks is the blockade so there's that. Like I said before, Hamas stopped rocket attacks, and tried to police other groups doing the same, for over a year in compliance with the 2012 ceasefire. They stopped because Israel only slightly loosened the blockade, and didn't lift it as they'd originally promised. So that's how this would happen if Israel ended the blockade; Israel needs to sign another ceasefire and actually follow it.
And the cause for the blockade before 2012 was that Hamas seized power in the Gaza strip, murdered its political opponents, and instituted a reign of terror where elections were suspended indefinitely, dissent was impossible, and Palestinian “collaborators” were abducted, tortured, and murdered.
And the reason for the end of the ceasefire in 2014 was that Hamas abducted the teenagers, followed by Israel imprisoning 350 Palestinian militants, followed by Hamas launching rocket attacks against Israeli civilians from Gaza.
That’s the problem, isn’t it - whatever any side does in this conflict, it’s easy to find justification for it if you only go back fast enough in history. There are more than 2000 years of history there, full of conflict between the various ethnic groups. If anyone wants to find justification for current atrocities, it’s always easy to point to atrocities previously committed by the other side.
That said: do you really believe that Hamas wild simply cease its terrorism, its atrocities, its rocket attacks, kidnappings, torture, murder and simply decide to live in peace with Israel if the blockade were to be lifted tomorrow?
And the cause for the blockade before 2012 was that Hamas seized power in the Gaza strip, murdered its political opponents, and instituted a reign of terror where elections were suspended indefinitely, dissent was impossible, and Palestinian “collaborators” were abducted, tortured, and murdered.
The blockade started in 2005. These events happened in 2006/2007.
And the reason for the end of the ceasefire in 2014 was that Hamas abducted the teenagers, followed by Israel imprisoning 350 Palestinian militants, followed by Hamas launching rocket attacks against Israeli civilians from Gaza.
The ceasefire ended without the blockade getting lifted. That's the crux of the issue. The 2008 and 2012 ceasefires were basically "you stop terrorism and we'll lift the blockade" What do you expect to happen when after that the blockade isn't lifted?
That said: do you really believe that Hamas wild simply cease its terrorism, its atrocities, its rocket attacks, kidnappings, torture, murder and simply decide to live in peace with Israel if the blockade were to be lifted tomorrow?
So like I said twice now, it happened before.
to be fair, Hamas would have been a thing of the Past is Netanyahu wasn’t supporting them through direct money and a bit of targeting non-radical secular groups that stood for an alternative to Hamas.
Yes, Hamas was aided by the guy using them as an excuse to kill civilians
Palestinians who are Israeli citizens (20% of the population) seem to be doing quite well and are not murdering their neighbors or advocating genocide.
Shhhh, this is an inconvenient reality that the “anti-Israel folks no matter what happens” folks conveniently refuse to learn about. Granted the Christian Arab Israelis are way more chill about not murdering people or advocating genocide, but outside of college age Muslim brotherhood males, Arab Israelis are pretty fucking chill.
I wouldn’t want to be those Palestinians living in Israel, for three days after the whole Hamas incursion happened they were getting shot openly in the street by radical Israelis, but that got about as much news coverage as the fact that Netanyahu actually aided Hamas for a long time in order to undermine the PAs ability to negotiate a two-state solution.
Remember the Palestinian diaspora? Half of the people in Gaza and the West Bank are descendants of people who fled/were expelled from Israel in 1948-1949. You can look up Benny Morris's four stage analysis for more details. Israel couldn't get a Jewish majority in Palestine, so they went for ethnic cleansing. Arab Israelis are the people they allowed to stay.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, **with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. **
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
As mentioned above, Israel is not homogeneous. They want to have safety for their people, not ethnically cleanse Palestinian Arabs. 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Arabs. Wanting to ethnically cleanse is more Hamas's thing, as they explicitly target Jews.
Arab Israelis are the people they allowed to stay.
Right, because they were peaceful they have been treated differently than constantly hostile belligerents targeting and killing civilians for over 75 years. This conflict is about safety for Israel. Self-defense.
Bro look up the Palestinian diaspora then speak. 700000 people were expelled or terrorized into leaving using massacres and you're going on and on about Israel's self-defense. The IDF (or what would become the IDF) actually got orders to keep certain locations Palestinian free, which got about 140 thousand Palestinians expelled.