Mastodawn

https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/01/peter-apo-lets-hope-for-a-respectful-dialogue-about-mauna-kea/

@ReimanSaara Native Hawaiian sentiment about astronomy on Mauna Kea is split. It's not monolithic as you seem to be portraying it.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/09/new-mauna-kea-stewards-will-need-to-balance-astronomy-and-cultural-values/#:~:text=A%20Civil%20Beat%2FHNN%20poll,expressed%20that%20opinion%20in%202019.

Peter Apo: Let’s Hope For A Respectful Dialogue About Mauna Kea

Hawaiians are not unanimous in their opposition to the telescope and there is no religious authority to make decisions.

Honolulu Civil Beat

@brianvastag

Are you arguing, that an entire nation is not same thing as a single-minded cult?

Yes, you can find people with different opinions from every relatively sizable group.

Not exactly big news and not an argument.

@ReimanSaara I don''t follow your argument. Who is the single-minded cult in this scenario you're trying to paint?

@brianvastag I'm not trying to paint anything. You said that there existing different opinions among Hawaiians (as opposed to them being brainwashed cultists) is somehow a relevant point here. In my next toot, I explained (briefly), how it is really not.

@ReimanSaara Not sure if you know the history of TMT but the telescope people negotiated with a formal group of Native Hawaiians who had authority over the mountain and made many concessions. But then another group of Native Hawaiians declared themselves leaders and said those Native Hawaiians don't speak for us and started the anti-TM protests.

@brianvastag I have actually followed the situation for some years now. Are you aware of how Kingdom of Hawai'i ceased to be?

"Concession" is a magical word here. Who are those telescope people to make "concessions" to children of the land?

This is not an equal situation- and at some level, you appear to be aware of that. In unequal situations, some members of an oppressed minority always take side of oppressors for various reasons. It's not unique to this case. I think a broader historical context should be adopted here.

@ReimanSaara Yes, I live in Hawaii and am very aware of the colonial history.

Recent polls show 50-60% of people who identify as Native Hawaiian want the TMT built.

You seem to be unaware of this fact.

@brianvastag

Like I said, it is not that difficult to find people from minority who agree with those who oppress them even if oppression is blatant. I have not yet encoutered a minority where this does not happen. Situations involving power imbalance are nuanced in ways that can not be properly reduced to simple yes/no answers.

Like I said: my view is based on a broader historical perspective, on what I know of minority issues in general as well as on applied ethics & ethics of science, and on top of that on my understanding on how indigenous faith (on more general level, obviously I don't know much about Hawaiian faith in particular) works.

What dimensions have you considered while forming your view?

Hannah Oct 15, 2023

@ReimanSaara
Some random things that people outside of Hawaii, and personally unfamiliar with traditional Hawaiian culture, are often not aware of:
*ALL land and water was sacred to Hawaiians, as they were the source of all life.
*Mauna Kea itself has never been a special sacred site, unlike many other locations, and other natural features, which were associated with various rituals, traditions, and taboos.
*The ali’i, Hawaiian nobility, whose persons were also sacred, and who had absolute authority over commoners, had fully embraced Western ways
- clothing, technology, lifestyle, religion - and had abolished the kapu system, and thus the traditional religion, in the early 18th century.
*Almost two hundred years later (and a few years before the overthrow of the monarchy), one of the last ali’i officially restored many non-religious Hawaiian cultural traditions (which had been banned by Christians), although some had continued to be practiced in secret.