Michael O’Neal
ScalziTell me you don’t acknowledge video games as art without saying you don’t acknowledge video games as art
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/magazine/stale-culture.html
charlesesmith@scalzi just insane take on all sides, unless you’re in the pocket of big marble sculpture or something
Michael@scalzi The folks who run the NYT are like most fascists; They don't like art that doesn't support their idea of racial purity. Given the breadth of modern art, games in particular, when it comes to lifting up people from all walks of life, it is no surprise they dismiss them.
Hacksaw?@scalzi Meanwhile, I like to watch streamers play through games because I enjoy the story and sights so much. It's almost as if these video game devs care deeply about narrative and experience.
Matthew Reinbold@scalzi Thank you! I was a bit cheesed off when I saw that linkbait headline this morning, too.
I mean, just take the burgeoning YouTube documentary space with people like Dan Olson or Maggie Mae Fish, the musical skits of Daniel Thrasher or Forrest Brazeal, entirely new sports like Jelle's Marble run or what 3Dbotmaker is doing with How Wheels cars, or whatever you call what Brian David Gilbert does.... LOADS of new things that don't fit traditional cultural definitions - IF you care to look.
Greg Nilsen
OmnivoreYeah, he doesn't mention web comics or other new art forms, he would have been right at home in the Académie des Beaux-arts de Paris when the impressionists rebelled.
I define 'art' as a search for perfection in whatever you do. Fine art, industrial art, and digging ditches are all candidates for inclusion.
Farago is looking in old bottles for new wine and doesn't understand that innovation seldom pleases the old guard. He demonstrates the difference between education (he has lots) and understanding (he has little).
FeralRobots@Ralph
That's the sort of 'definition of art' I can get into. My own working definition is that art is what we do when we sense discord. It's not necessarily "fixing" the discord - sometimes it creates more of it - but it's how we react when we're faced with it.
That ends up folding a lot of stuff in under 'art' (similar to your idea) but I'm good with that.
@matthew @scalzi
That's the sort of 'definition of art' I can get into. My own working definition is that art is what we do when we sense discord. It's not necessarily "fixing" the discord - sometimes it creates more of it - but it's how we react when we're faced with it.
That ends up folding a lot of stuff in under 'art' (similar to your idea) but I'm good with that.
@matthew @scalzi
I think discord and perfection are two sides of the same coin. The big difference is that discord can be fixed (temporarily) while perfection is forever out of reach (except in math, which is imaginary).
Pasi Kallinen@scalzi Can't read the article, but I bet it's also only western art?
ASmellyOgre@scalzi
"Things from 20 years ago don't seem old to me!"
That's not because culture is stagnant. There are distinct fashions that belong exclusively to the 2000's. The "Scene" subculture came and went in that time. The electronic music of 2003 is unlike that of 2023.
This columnist isn't noticing a stagnation of culture. They're failing to notice their own aging.
standev@asmellyogre @scalzi that is exactly what I took from this.
ilmari@scalzi in contrast, the V&A video game exhibition a few years ago absolutely approached it as the art form it is
Tom Bellin 
@scalzi Navel gazing at its finest.
Unless the critic is saying that humanity will be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust, in which case maybe they're right.
Kevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦@scalzi In order to make the thesis stated in the headline, they would have to also disregard ART as art.
Darwin Woodka@scalzi or hip hop, rap, fanfic, fanart, comics, etc, etc....
Darryl Mott@scalzi Well, I can't find out what their answer is but I think I found one they didn't intend...
Kit Malone@scalzi "stuffy male New York Times columnist betrays his skin deep understanding of popular culture and explains why art used to be better in the old days and how that is the fault of middle class women and girls and the clothes and music he thinks they like"
@scalzi show me an era & I'll show you an era that's failing to recognize a lot of its art.
deeoh 
“Most artists and audiences at the time did not think this was such a virtue. “Young Lady in 1866” got bad press at the Salon, the annual exhibition of France’s official art academy, where artists aspired to eternal beauty and eternal values, expressed through classicized motifs and highly finished surfaces.”
Isn’t this just an example of how art that is under-appreciated at the time of creation can gain cultural significance over time?
“What piece of clothing or accessory could you give a model to mark her as “Young Lady in 2023”? A titanium-cased iPhone is all that comes to mind, and even that hasn’t changed its appearance much in a decade.”
And here he misses the mark, it’s like saying painting hasn’t changed in centuries because people still use brushes.
@scalzi The iPhone is the tool, the apps are the culturally significant part of this image. Sure, the original iPhone was a hallmark of the always-connected era, but that doesn’t mean that stagnating hardware design equals stagnation overall.
@scalzi Ah, and no art farticle would be complete without a mention of Cage’s 4’33”, bravo.
RAK@scalzi: Triple A video games have come to a cultural standstill by and large as well.
Thankfully, there is a thriving indie sphere now which provides much of video gaming's innovation and drive.
Corb_The_Lesser@scalzi This century has 77 years to go.
Charles Herold@scalzi Well, an article whose central premise is that you can tell how culturally revolutionary a century will be based on its first 23 years is already pretty suspect.