Mastodawn

Hamas blindsides Israel with most serious attack in a generation

https://lemmy.world/post/6456158

Hamas blindsides Israel with most serious attack in a generation - Lemmy.world

Israel was taken by surprise by the most ambitious operation Hamas has ever launched from Gaza. The scale of what’s been happening is unprecedented. Hamas breached the wire that separates Gaza from Israel in multiple places in the most serious cross-border attack Israel has faced in more than a generation. It came a day after the 50th anniversary of the surprise attack by Egypt and Syria in 1973 that started a major Middle East war. The significance of the date will not have been lost on the Hamas leadership. Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country is at war and will exact a heavy price from its enemies. Videos and photos of dead Israelis, civilians as well as soldiers, are all over social media.

AutoTL;DR Oct 7, 2023

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Other videos of armed men from Hamas hauling soldiers and civilians into captivity in Gaza have enraged and alarmed Israelis.

Israelis and Palestinians have been focusing on the West Bank, the territory between Jerusalem and the Jordanian border that Israel has occupied since 1967, where there has been almost continuous confrontation and violence throughout the year.

Armed Palestinians, especially those operating out of the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus, have attacked Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers.

Extreme religious nationalists inside Israel’s right-wing government have repeated their claim that the occupied territories, in their entirety, are Jewish land.

During the last week, some Jews have prayed inside the Aqsa Mosque compound, the third holiest place for Muslims after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.

At the heart of the trouble is the intractable and unresolved century-long conflict between Arabs and Jews for control of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the river Jordan.

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Number1SummerJam Oct 7, 2023

Is there going to be another war or should this just be considered a small scale attack?

NoneOfUrBusiness Oct 7, 2023

I mean Israel already declared a state of war. Yeah this is not a small scale attack, and is actually the first time Hamas actually attacked Israel with foot soldiers.

metaStatic Oct 7, 2023

another war

did the last one ever stop?

Number1SummerJam Oct 7, 2023

If you listen closely, it never stops

Telodzrum Oct 7, 2023

Bibi’s an authoritarian with a strong desire to create a sort of ethnostate. He also needs the media to cover something other than his corruption and his removal of the judiciary’s independence from his regime.

So, I expect this to be extremely ugly and to leave Palestine and her people worse off than ever before.

A major issue is that there isn’t even a Palestinian Authority with which to negotiate anymore. And, Hamas is happy to let Palestine and Palestinians suffer to the last person so long as it means they get to shoot at just one more Israeli. It will go on until Israel wants to stop, which under the current government may be never.

SuperCuber Oct 8, 2023

until Israel wants to stop

Excuse me? And how will Israel stop this exactly?

hurr durr lift the blockade, remove the wall

And you think Hamas will disband immediately? No, they will launch an all out attack again, because one of their stated holy goals is to murder as many Israelis as possible. The blockade keeps Israelis alive, and your armchair suggestions are stupid.

Draedron Oct 8, 2023

Maybe stop sniping kids from the wall or stop stealing land

barsoap Oct 8, 2023

And how will Israel stop this exactly?

Hire a necromancer, reanimate Rabin.

Chunk Oct 9, 2023

I punch a dog. The dog bites me. I put the dog in a cage. The dog scratches me. I beat the ever loving shit out of the dog. The dog bites me. Torture the dog and then go to the UN and cry that the dog bit me. The UN looks the other way as I attempt to beat the dog to death.

betwixthewires Oct 8, 2023

No, Israel has declared war. This is a BFD. A couple hundred dead, 1500 injured, Hamas is going door to door executing people. 2000 rockets fired into Israel. They’ve captured territory. They’ve captured the general of the Israeli defence force. This isn’t some border skirmish like we have heard about for a couple of decades, this was a very competent full scale attack.

Israel doesn’t fuck around. Even if you don’t agree with them, they’re very militarily capable. Israel is about to turn Gaza into rubble in under a week. In the 6 day war, several Arab countries formed a coalition and attacked Israel, and got so thoroughly buttspanked they haven’t done it since. Within 6 days they conquered all the way to the current Jordanian border, the Golan Heights from Syria, and the entirety of Sinai, which they returned as a gesture. Gaza is about to get glassed.

cyd Oct 8, 2023

So, we expect 10,000 Palestinians dead? 100,000?

Cryophilia Oct 8, 2023

Just pulling numbers out of my ass, but I would not be surprised if the eventual total was in the tens of thousands, and also if it takes 20 years for the true total to be known

betwixthewires Oct 8, 2023

I have no fucking idea man. I just know that Israel doesn’t fuck around. Whatever they do, it will be decisive and effective.

AFaithfulNihilist Oct 8, 2023

Genocide. Anticipate genocide as Israel uses this opportunity to justify eradicating the Palestinians. Never mind that everyone was warned that this would happen if they continued to bulldoze houses during Ramadan.

SCB Oct 8, 2023

Israel is unlikely to do that, as the international uproar would likely cause them to lose American support

The 10,000-100,000 dead is more likely, shameful as that itself is.

okamiueru Oct 8, 2023

It is with and because of American support that Israel has been able to do what it’s done for the past decades.

SCB Oct 8, 2023

I’m glad Israel has US support so that the attacks against it are minimally effective. Materiel support does not shape Israel’s governing policies

Chunk Oct 9, 2023

I bet it’s more than 20:1.

MeanEYE Oct 9, 2023

Gaza War in 2014. Left is Israeli casualties. Of course, Hamas started that one as well. Can’t imagine what will happen now.

bestnerd Oct 7, 2023

I mean, Israel kind of threw the first stone and built the first wall

athos77 Oct 7, 2023

Their settlers have been entering the Al Aqsa Mosque en masse for the past couple weeks, trying to pray, which even the Israeli government says they're not supposed to do.

jscummy Oct 8, 2023

They tried to pray at a mosque? Better shoot up a music festival

MTK Oct 7, 2023

They came for the civilians, they shot families in their homes, literal children and babies. No stone provoked this.

rockyTron Oct 7, 2023

The Israeli settlers did this first in the forties when they invaded and colonized Palestine, indiscriminate violence was their M.O., so yes the first stone was thrown two generations ago. Not excusing the violence today, but it is not unexpected nor unprecedented by either side of this conflict.

samokosik Oct 7, 2023

how many times has palestine been offered land for peace? Many - In 1948, 1967 and even later there were offers which mentioned connecting palestine and gaza. all the times, palestinians refused it.

Hence why I am under the impression that they are more responsible for this conflict.

bestnerd Oct 8, 2023

I had no idea. Why wouldn’t they take the offers

Breezy Oct 8, 2023

Thats like asking why Ukrainian wont just accecpt Russians offer for peace. They have their homeland stolen, and then should be happy with a little bit of it after the fact?

The Octonaut Oct 8, 2023

This is Lemmy, there are quite a lot of American teens who don’t know why Ukraine shouldn’t do exactly as you say.

bestnerd Oct 8, 2023

I mean that’s a solid point

SlikPikker Oct 8, 2023

Israeli governments weren’t serious.

Bibi was strengthening Hamas to undermine PLO

SCB Oct 8, 2023

Bibi was not in power when these offers were made. He wasn’t even alive for the first of them.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS Oct 9, 2023

They never accepted because it was thier fertile crop land that was being taken from them. It failed to be mentioned that these offers were by the British. The Jews themselves also declined the first to offers.

argues_semantics Oct 8, 2023

This is like somebody moving into your home and then you accept a couple of the bedrooms and one of the bathrooms, believing it to be an appropriate compromise.

samokosik Oct 8, 2023

Not really. It’s definitely a bit tough to judge who did the dessert belong to. But historically, there was a point in time when jews were living in that area.

argues_semantics Oct 8, 2023

Historically, there was a point in time, is such a slippery slope. We could play that geography game all day.

jimbolauski Oct 8, 2023

That’s his point claiming it belongs to one group or another over simplifies what’s happened in that region.

Loudergood Oct 8, 2023

The pie is big enough, but someone takes another slice every year.

Dkarma Oct 8, 2023

But that time you’re talking about all this land was recognized as Palestine. Prior to 1948 no government or country in the planet recognized any Israeli claim to this land.

samokosik Oct 10, 2023

It has been recognized as palestine for a logn long time (since rome), though state was never present. Palestine as a state never existed and thoughts about creating a palestinian state began after Ww2

OccamsTeapot Oct 9, 2023

You have a pizza.

I take 3/4 of it onto my plate, without asking, as you look on in horror.

I suggest we “compromise” and split it 50/50. After all, your grandad took my grandad’s pizza when they were both kids. You owe me.

Someone please explain to me how this is different

argues_semantics Oct 10, 2023

To speak less in analogies and just cite history, Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century until 1917. After their defeat in WWI, Britain took control of the region under the British Mandate for Palestine, basically controlling all of the region west of the River Jordan. Up until 1947, approximately 420,000 Jews immigrated to the region where the population was about 600k Jews to 1.2M Arabs in Palestine.

In 1948, Britain left which meant an opportunity for a coalition of Arab states to attempt to take back “what was theirs” 31 years ago. The Jews were able to defend the region and have since been encroaching further and further outside of that area they defended previously.

Before all of this “modern” history, from the 7th century to the 16th, the region was controlled by Islamic states and Christian crusaders (who took the land for themselves, not for the Jews, and even killed a lot of Jews — think hundreds of thousands, if not more — during their occupation).

We can continue to go back in history to Roman rule, Egyptian rule, etc. but how far back in time are we willing to go to, going back to your analogy, determine how much of the pizza you should be entitled to? What of the rest of the world? It’s a good question and I obviously don’t have the answer but I’m also trying to understand as best as I’m able to.

With that being said, none of that history warrants the atrocities being committed by either side. If the two sides could co-exist in a United Israel-Palestine state, that would be the ideal resolution in my mind. Unfortunately, due to the overwhelming religious zeal on one side and a superiority complex on the other, that’s just a pipe dream.

OccamsTeapot Oct 10, 2023

Nothing to add or contribute here just wanted to say thanks for the very thoughtful response.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the question of how far we should go back to work out how the “pizza” should be shared. I don’t think there is an answer to that. If you go too far back it’s ludicrous and if you think too short term it’s totally unfair.

Agree about the solution. Unfortunately it seems like people on both sides want innocents to die instead 🤷‍♂️

PM_ME_FEET_PICS Oct 9, 2023

You’re a fucking idiot.

Imagine having 100% of your cropland, 40% of your holy sites and 50% of your homes given to another group because of the mis conception that you are nomadic.

You are also aware that the Jews delined the first 2 offers as well until they were given 80% of the land, right?

danhakimi Oct 7, 2023

Jewish subjects under the British mandate rebelled against the British government and the Nazi-aligned muftis. This, after decades of oppression against the Jews of the colony; finally, they declared their independence.

A lot of people are excusing, and in many cases celebrating the violence today. They love to see Jews die. This is nothing new.

bestnerd Oct 8, 2023

No one is saying Jews need to or should die. The argument is larger than that. Israel has don’t some fucking horrible things to Palestinians. Palestine rejected land deals and peace. It’s horrible to see what’s happening. No one should be praising Hamas,

danhakimi Oct 8, 2023

but people do praise Hamas. People celebrate when Jews die.

Here's a few tweets and retweets by Mia Khalifa (via Nitter):

https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710663220619313397#m

https://nitter.net/farzndeimam/status/1710532280291049891#m

https://nitter.net/NadiSaadeh/status/1710628721151942987#m

https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710641662068670834#m

https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710722638975279537#m

And, while we're at it:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyG1HdsA5I9/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpIyIEPO-OI/

So yeah, some people are saying Jews should die. Should I bring up the Hamas charter?

Dkarma Oct 8, 2023

Now do apartheid South Africa. Easy to see who the baddies are.

jimbolauski Oct 8, 2023

That area has been under conflict for 1,000s of years claiming that it’s the Palestinians land is very short sided.

Dkarma Oct 8, 2023

The Bible say so 🤷‍♂️

Wahots Oct 8, 2023

It belonged to the British before WW2. After the war, where Israel was created after 6,000,000 Jewish people (among other “undesirable” groups, such as gay people) were summarily executed by the nazis, it fell under immediately attack from all of its neighbors in 1947. Two years after six million were executed.

The Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq refused to accept the UN partition plan and proclaimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs across the whole of Palestine. The Arab states marched their forces into what had, until the previous day, been the British Mandate for Palestine, starting the first Arab–Israeli War. After an initial loss of territory by the Jewish state, the tide turned in the Israelis’ favour and they pushed the Arab armies back beyond the borders of the proposed Arab state

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

While it doesn’t excuse brutal repression, I don’t think they are ever going to back down. Any time they do, everyone seems to execute all of them in pogroms.

History of Israel - Wikipedia

Dkarma Oct 8, 2023

In the Bible the Jews took over Canaan. Sorry but the Jews own history says the cannaanites were there first.

bobman Oct 7, 2023

I genuinely believe Hamas got through because the Israeli military got lazy and complacent.

I think it’s an issue with this generation. They were caught with their pants down, literally.

danhakimi Oct 7, 2023

Well, they attacked on Simchat Torah (and Shabbat). Simchat Torah is one of our relatively few Happy holidays, and it's a day where Jews are not supposed to do any work, use fire, use electricity, etc. but are in fact supposed to be celebrating in synagogue.

This is not the first time they've attacked on a Jewish holy day. It's entirely intentional.

bobman Oct 7, 2023

I mean, letting your guard down on a holy day isn’t really an excuse.

danhakimi Oct 8, 2023

Yeah, they should have, and to some extent they were. I don't think they "let their guard down," but I'm not in the IDF, I don't know how many people take the day off on shabbat or on simchat torah, I'm just saying that this was very intentional timing. It is, to the day, the 50 year anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.

Zagorath Oct 8, 2023

It’s entirely intentional

I mean of course it is. Anyone involved in a war would choose to time their attacks at the time they think it’s going to be most effective; it would be silly to suggest otherwise.

It’s certainly sad that civilians keep dying in this, but when one side is arguably committing a genocide against the other, and not-even-arguably is an apartheid state subjugating the other side, it’s very hard to side with the apartheiders.

danhakimi Oct 8, 2023

lol what?

"Genocide" is really hard to argue when their population keeps going up and most of the people being killed are active enemy combattants who target civilians.

"Apartheid" is hard to argue for a totally egalitarian state on the basis that it has borders. Oh no! The US is engaged in Apartheid with Mexico! The Apartheid lie is very easy to argue against, because there's no basis for it.

feedum_sneedson Oct 8, 2023

Well, not literally.

UltraMagnus0001 Oct 8, 2023

GB and the allies said, hey we’ll put you here in Israel since 2000 years ago the Pharaohs made you slaves. Don’t mind the people living here, they’ll just move. They did the same thing with India and Pakistan. I wonder how the animosity between these groups started?