NightOwl11 arrested in protest at Sen. Bernie Sanders’s office over war in Ukraine
imPastaSyndromeTHAT’S the war they choose to protest?
bdonvrTurns out being anti-war protesters means they’re ANTI WAR.
What do you want them to do? Raise funds to send some missles over?
I can respect the desire for a policy of complete non-intervention.
cringe. It’s actually good to take action to reduce harm.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn’t?
Walt J. RimmerIs it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though?
When Russia is trying to commit genocide against Ukraine? Yes.
Do you have a source for Russia doing genocide or are you just referring to the war?
It’s been widely reported by numerous nations and organizations. Search for “Russian genocide Ukraine” and you’ll see plenty of credible sources
I’m wondering if you just posted the link without reading any results and are just doubling down to sound correct.
One of the first articles is AP news reporting UN backed human rights groups calling it genocide
apnews.com/…/russia-ukraine-war-human-rights-663b…
And an article by Time reporting the kidnapping of children being investigated as genocide, and that there is already enough evidence for the allegations
UN rights experts decry war crimes by Russia in Ukraine and look into genocide allegations
Independent U.N.-backed human rights experts say they have turned up continued evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces in their war against Ukraine. It includes torture — some with such “brutality” that it led to death — and rape of women as old as 83 years old. Members of the U.N. Independent Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine also expressed concerns about allegations of genocide by Russian forces and are looking into them. The team said evidence showed crimes committed on both sides, but that vastly more and a wider array of abuses were committed by Russian forces than by Ukrainian troops.
loathsome dongeaterNone of these articles formally come to the conclusion that there is a definitive genocide. They are meant to bait racist bloodthirsty rubes like you to into acting on your biases.
Members of the U.N. Independent Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine also expressed concerns about allegations of genocide by Russian forces, and said they’re looking into them.
expressed concerns about allegations
looking into them
Keep hallucinating wishfully.
From statista:
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 9,614 civilian deaths during Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as of September, 2023. Furthermore, 17,535 people were reported to have been injured. However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher.
Even if these estimates are extremely conservative they are low for a genocide. Perhaps Russians are just terrible at genocide and should learn from Americans.
Guess I should start following Russian State News instead for the truth. Find out how there is no war, just a special operation to liberate the Ukrainian people from their nazi (Jewish) leadership
No point continuing this conversation. Have a good day
Jewish leadership?
President Zelenskyy is from a Ukrainian Jewish family. At the start of the war Russia claimed Ukraine was taken over by Nazis and they were trying to liberate the country. It was a ridiculous claim and they had to come up with other justifications afterwards
Is it fair to characterise the Ukrainian leadership as Jewish because the President is Jewish?
With the same logic you could say that the USA was under “black leadership” when Obama was president. Whether that is technically true depends on what you mean by “black leadership” and what your expect to entail from it. However, under the leadership of the black president and various black members of House and Senate, black people still continued to be ghettoised, red lined, incarcerated disproportionately, and in general be socioeconomically disadvantaged.
With that in mind, is a Jewish president an enough of an influence to declare the whole leadership Jewish? How do you reconcile that with the constant barrage photos of Ukrainian soldiers with SS and Banderite insignias and tattoos?
Well, in context of “the Nazis have taken over and our only option is a military operation to remove the government”, I highly doubt the Nazis would allow a Jewish person to be elected as president in the first place. If they don’t have that ability then they clearly don’t have enough power to justify a foreign invasion
If they were serious about stopping Nazis maybe they should have started with Dmitry Utkin who has Nazi tattoos and literally named the state-funded Wagner group after Hitler’s favorite composer.
It’s almost like this has never been about stopping Nazis at all
I highly doubt the Nazis would allow a Jewish person to be elected as president in the first place
Why would they not allow that? Literally one Jewish in a seat of power is enough for people like you to turn a blind eye towards entire Nazi batallions. This is after I gave the example of the Obama and how a leader’s identity is not necessarily concominant with the direction the state is headed in. Similarly one picture of Utkin with Nazi tattoos is enough to convince you that Wagner in its entirety is Nazi or Nazi aligned or whatever your point is but you won’t extend the same courtesy towards Biletsky or the photos of Ukrainian soldiers with Nazi symbology.
It ia possible that Putin and Russia are not ideologically opposed to Nazism though with the WW2 it seems unlikely. Normal people don’t believe that the Russian invasion is Putin’s holy crusade against the Nazi ideology or a Duginist quest to expand the Russian empire. People who don’t base their ontology off of Harry Potter understand that war and conflict for materially grounded reasons rather than ideological initiatives. Russia’s invasion was provoked by a US backed coup which installed a pro-US leadership at Russia’s doorstep and armed nao-Nazi militias that have been waging an ethnic war against the Russian speaking regions of Ukraine that did not accept the legitimacy of the post-coup government. It does not matter if they are Nazis or Death Eaters of whatever. The war is a response to agressive posturing by the west. Discussions of ideological and rhetorical honesty are not relevant.
Well thank God we’re sending those Nazis out to die, then!
Who is we?
The royal we of “whomsoever you’re saying is at fault for ‘forcing this war’” including NATO, US, etc
I feel like you were trying to make a point instead of typing gibberish but I can’t tell what is was
Did you misread the AP link? The un group provides reports of war crimes, not genocide.
William B Peckham@OurToothbrush: No country is going to start a war of genocide and notify the world that what they are doing is genocide. They just do. Putin wants to be another Stalin and is following his steps to empire, and that included acts of Genocide against Ukranians to depopulate Ukraine so that Russians could take the land.
The links provided literally claim war crimes, they do not claim genocide.
Also Stalin did some terrible things but comparing him to Putin is ridiculous.
…medium.com/holodomor-fact-or-fiction-17324ffe1d4…
‚In addition, and despite some people (i.e., Norman Naimark) saying “The Soviet Union made no efforts to provide relief”, reports show that the Central Soviet Authorities sent hundreds of thousands of tonnes of food aid to Ukraine. In early February of 1933, Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk regions each received 3,300 tonnes of food aid. By the end of February, the Dnipropetrovsk region received 20,000 tonnes of food aid, Odessa received around 13,000 tonnes, and Kharkiv received almost 5,000 tonnes. Reports document that from February to June in the year of 1933, over 500,000 tonnes of food aid was sent to Ukraine. According to archived documents, Joseph Stalin himself, along with Molotov, personally took it upon themselves to scold Joseph Vareikis, First Secretary of the Voronezh Regional Committee of the CPSU, on March 31st of 1933 for his objection to sending 26,000 pounds of potatoes to the Donbass region of Ukraine. These behaviors including, but not limited to, sending food aid and at that personally intervening to ensure food aid is being given, is fairly odd or strange behavior for, as the “holodomor-genocide” campaigners would say, a “genocidal maniac who wanted to kill Ukrainians”. Truly, there was no reason for Stalin to go as far as personally intervening in that situation as he did to ensure food aid was sent to Ukraine if he was genuinely trying to create a famine to crush Ukraine.‘
You can also find archived docs of that time where the exact numbers and policies are described; it’s in Cyrillic though.
@OurToothbrush I did not compare who to Stalin directly, although reading what I did right I understand the misscommunication. Putin has expressed admiration for Stalin and the significant evidence that he would like to be like Stalin, but I agree that he is not quite there. He has expressed a wish to rebuild the Soviet Union and eliminate true democracy both in former Soviet Union states, in russia, and in the rest of the world. If you look at what he has done in the world, genocide is definitely in his wheelhouse.
Putin might want to be like the idea of Stalin he has in his head, but not the actual “paperwork can wait, hunger cannot” revolutionary communist Stalin.
@OurToothbrush In Ukraine, Stalin created starvation.
Literally not even liberal historians believe that. See: Conquest, Wheatcroft, Davies, Applebaum.
You’re literally citing a channel that does stuff on ancient aliens and nazi ufos
Hoe about you actually go look at academics instead of citing corporate media
@OurToothbrush my history books Aldo mention the starvation devastation Stalin visited upon the Ukrainian population. It is a matter of historical record, witnessed and verified. What about it do you doubt?
Not according to noted anti-communist historians like Conquest, Wheafcroft and Davies, even fucking Applebaum. Have you read something outside a highschool textbook?
@OurToothbrush Yes. History is not my primary subject, but I have three degrees and trust the foremost experts on the subject. https://holodomor.ca/resources/documents-and-sources/documents/
You obviously do not have the tools to identify the foremost experts. You have been terrible at identifying credible resources, youre last round has been: book review of a book by an author who has made comments that it isnt a genocide, an encyclopedia, a news article about a vote by a European parliament, and a list of English translated letters that don’t show evidence it was a genocide. None are anywhere close to as credible as the well respected mainstream historians who studied this, thought it was a genocide, and then said “no, actually it wasn’t” after the undemocratic dissolution of the USSR when more internal documents became available for them.
As for the vote you reference, that event was actually mentioned by this well respected western Jewish historian and activist in his article on holocaust trivialization:
jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
You should read it so you understand the political implications of the claim you are making and how it connects to denying the holocaust.
@OurToothbrush Your points are disingenuous. At the time some of the original works that are quoted were written, the term genocide had not come into common use. That makes the point that some of the writers did not use the term rather meaningless. Had you read the articles and researched the background data cited you might have learned something. It is clear to me now that learning that something you have questioned has a strong factual basis is not exactly what you're looking for. You're looking for someone to reaffirm your misconceptions. I am not that guy, and that does not upset me although it seems to upset you. Since you're not interested in anything from me I will abandon this thread at this point, but I suggest you continue and widen your readings I challenge your preconceptions to get closer to the truth. I wish you the best of luck.
At the time some of the original works that are quoted were written, the term genocide had not come into common use. That makes the point that some of the writers did not use the term rather meaningless.
What are you even talking about?
Had you read the articles and researched the background data cited you might have learned something.
I’ve literally read books on the subject written by people who hold a very negative opinion of the USSR. You have a smorgasbord of hastily assembled articles that you very evidently didn’t read, or at least read critically, before citing.
You’re looking for someone to reaffirm your misconceptions. I am not that guy, and that does not upset me although it seems to upset you.
You are projecting.
Since you’re not interested in anything from me I will abandon this thread at this point,
I literally am interested in something from you, which is that you read and understand the cited article from a well respected Jewish holocaust historian and activist.
but I suggest you continue and widen your readings I challenge your preconceptions to get closer to the truth. I wish you the best of luck.
I literally engage with the mainstream western academic consensus on the subject, I am not going to engage with revived nazi propaganda that was used as justification for exterminating Jews by Ukrainian collaborators.
Ukraine - Holodomor, Famine, 1932-33
Ukraine - Holodomor, Famine, 1932-33: The result of Stalin’s policies was the Great Famine (Holodomor) of 1932–33—a man-made demographic catastrophe unprecedented in peacetime. Of the estimated five million people who died in the Soviet Union, almost four million were Ukrainians. The famine was a direct assault on the Ukrainian peasantry, which had stubbornly continued to resist collectivization; indirectly, it was an attack on the Ukrainian village, which traditionally had been a key element of Ukrainian national culture. Its deliberate nature is underscored by the fact that no physical basis for famine existed in Ukraine. The Ukrainian grain harvest of 1932 had resulted in below-average yields
@OurToothbrush https://euromaidanpress.com/2017/10/04/why-holodomor-is-genocide-under-un-convention/
Why the Holodomor is genocide under UN convention: On Anne Applebaum’s Red Famine
Between 1932–33, Stalin sought to wipe out the very concept of an independent Ukraine by targeting its peasantry and its leadership. In many senses, Lenin and Stalin carried on the traditions of the Tsarist empire in seeking to deny the Ukrainians their own identity, history, language, and culture. But Stalin’s application of this tradition proved...