Mastodawn

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 5, 2023

#Hubzilla #^https://hubzilla.org and #Streams #^https://codeberg.org/streams/streams share the same code root but are two separate #Fediverse projects started by @Mike Macgirvin, who started 2010 also Friendica.
Mike nowadays just develops for Streams.

Both projects can handel user groups, have a fine adjustable system for privacy, access control, and content ownership, offer as many channels as you like to have under one account and offer the unique function for a "nomadic identity".

The DEV Team which keeps developing Hubzilla likes to consider Streams as important as "Sid" (#^https://www.debian.org/releases/sid/) for debian.

Besides other improvements the Hubzilla Dev team is porting time by time the mayor developments made in Streams (as possible) to Hubzilla and is keeping HZ up to date with AP and working with other networks like #Diaspora and more

Streams uses the ZOT12 / NOMAD protocol and is at the same time 100% #ActivityPub

Hubzilla uses the ZOT6 protocol + other Network protocols by addons + all kinds of functions like a Web CMS can have: #Blogs, #Webpages, #WIKIS, #CalDAV, #CardDAV and so on

Streams is focused "just" on federated content and is pushing new functions around that also into AP. So Mike is with Streams actually involved in the ongoing development of ActivityPub and truly the avant-garde here. Because Streams is focused on "fewer" functions - Streams may be more easy to get started with the Fediverse - Streams just offers the right tools here for you.

Hubzilla has also functions for "old school" Web publishing, for content which does NOT federate and offers also all the tools for the IndieWeb #^https://indieweb.org/ . So for communities and persons which/how like to have all kinds of Web publishing functions and which/who are not just interested and dependent on having communication with the AP Network - Hubzille is THE ultimate choice.

Please check out for your self.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 - [email protected]

Bill Statler Sep 6, 2023

I don't think I agree that UI/UX is driving people away from Hubzilla/(streams). Yes, it could be improved.

But have you experienced Facebook recently? It's horrible. For everyday use, I find (streams) to be much easier and more enjoyable. And yet Facebook drives away only a small fraction of its users. Well, we know how they manage that trick: by being huge.

Do we have any reports from people who tried Hubzilla or (streams), and then left? Where did they go? What did they not like?

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

@Bill Statler
Do we have any reports from people who tried Hubzilla or (streams), and then left? Where did they go? What did they not like?

a lot of reports - yes - even if there are not written down... i have contact to quid a few newbees and they leave becasue they don't see a need for the privacy concept, they don't even get it... and they don't like the surface ... some also don't like the community - to dogmatic, they say...

Jupiter Rowland Sep 6, 2023

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Well, first they had a problem with #Mastodon not having the exact same UX as X. Then they had one with #Hubzilla not having the exact same UX as Mastodon.

Also, sure, today's #Fediverse is nothing like the old #FederatedSocialWeb.

10 years ago, the Federated Social Web was for geeks plus left-wing activists. #Friendica was the centre of the world. We didn't know whether we should pity or laugh at #Diaspora. And everyone was on desktop #Linux, and #Apple was evil incarnate.

Today, the Fediverse is for just about everyone. Mastodon is not only the centre of the world to the point that many spend up to half a year believing it is the Fediverse proper. People are pining for #Bluesky invites. And everyone's on an #iPhone and gushing over the #VisionPro.

Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 7, 2023

@Jupiter Rowland Thanks

So you are saying all the talk and efforts about UX/UI brings us not closer to the essential points and is actually distracting us...

UX/UI is a wrap up for raw functions - a surface - It can enable us to do things more easy - it can also nudge us to certain actions and also hide things way.

If UX/UI is keeping you from understanding and trying to do things by your self i would say there is something really wrong with the used UX/UI

I like Hubzilla so much because it actually enables us to do so many things...and we can also easy brake up the surface and tweak things... well not everybody can do this but the tools to try are implemented - and that is essential

Open Source project will never have the resources like the IT Industry has to invest in a really good UX/UI

In a world where iPhone are still an object of desire a project like streams can't be expected to find the crowd - but more free Web activists should us it instead of Masto.

just did some studies about the term #FederatedSocialWeb and will post it in a new thread

im.allmendenetz.de

Jupiter Rowland Sep 7, 2023

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼
So you are saying all the talk and efforts about UX/UI brings us not closer to the essential points and is actually distracting us...
No, I'm saying that people come from #Mastodon straight to #Hubzilla in expectation of "Mastodon with #RichText and a 50,000-character limit". Just like they came from Twitter to Mastodon because they were promised "literally Twitter without Elon Musk".

Then they land flat on their faces. Hubzilla turns out to be nothing like Mastodon. It handles vastly differently. Nothing is where they'd expect it. No content warnings (because Hubzilla calls them summaries). No UI element for alt-text. It doesn't have an app. Mastodon apps don't work. And so forth. Hell, 95% of them even fail to connect to other Mastodon users because nobody tells them that they have to turn #Pubcrawl on first!

Verdict: Hubzilla sucks. And they're back to their cosy little Mastodon which was hard enough to get used to already. No ambitions to learn something wholly new yet again.

I still remember when #Friendica mimicked the UIs of Facebook and #Diaspora*. Maybe Hubzilla needs to adopt this again with UIs that mimic Facebook, Twitter, Bluesky, Threads and the most popular Mastodon Web interfaces. Not only in looks, but even in handling as far as that's possible.

just did some studies about the term #FederatedSocialWeb and will post it in a new thread
The #FederatedSocialWeb was:

Diaspora* for the clueless hipsters who had never heard of Friendica, and who were absolutely convinced that those four guys were the first to develop a decentralised social network
Friendica for the geeks, the cool kids and alternative left-wing activists who had to use something obscure so that the authorities wouldn't discover their posts too easily
the #RedMatrix for those few daredevils who a) knew about it, b) were willing to try it and c) actually had access to a Red Matrix instance

Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 7, 2023

@Jupiter Rowland

and what role did play Status.net in your #FederatedSocialWeb ?

im.allmendenetz.de

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 7, 2023

@Jupiter Rowland you can't expect much form the crowd - but what do you think keeps the "free Web activists" on Masto?

Jupiter Rowland Sep 7, 2023

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Either they've only just arrived. It'll take them two months to learn that the #Fediverse isn't only #MastodonSocial and five months to learn that #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse.

Or it was hard enough already to do the switch from Twitter to #Mastodon and learn all the differences. Learning "yet another app" would be too tedious.

Or it's too difficult, if not out-right impossible, to move to another project and take all your followers with you.

Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 7, 2023

@Jupiter Rowland Ok there may be some fanboys who like to stick to what they just learned... but his does not explain the phenomenon for me why so many free Web/internet/IT activist stay on #Masto.

Well, there are few on #Friendica - but very very few on #Hubzilla or #streams.

Again.. not talking about the crowd here but about activist groups like #eff #fsfe #digitalcourage and individuals who fighting for freedom in the digital world. There must be an other reason. I assume they are all some how cough up in patterns which keeps same from moving... patterns you believe in can be quid strong... if you believe social media is by definition a public thing than you will like the app which gives you the most follower and spreads your word as fare as possible.

__

Thanks for your inside view on #StatusNet. I will do some more research. From that what i know so fare Evan Prodromou was very well involved in this #FederatedSocialWeb movement. According to this source #StatusNet and #Ostaus was subject for sure. Will try to dig deeper

im.allmendenetz.de

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 8, 2023

That was all they knew. And nobody told them otherwise because nobody else knew either.

(...)

So StatusNet wasn't really part of the #FederatedSocialWeb in practice.

According to my sources the story goes a bit different here - sorry for that @Jupiter Rowland

The "Federated Social Web" was an term founded and an initiative started by Evan Prodromou, the head and CEO behind #StatusNet #Ostaus and #IdentiCa. In July 2010 he tried to get together all active groups developing code specific to federation of the web. This happen to be just around the days as @Mike Macgirvin came around the corner with #DFRN. He got even invited to this "Federated Social Web" summit but i guess the way form Australia to Portland Oregon was a bit to long, for this short-term invitation.

There where some more "Federated Social Web" meetings and one result form Evans initiative was also the "W3C Federated Social Web Incubator Group" started on 15 December 2010 and transitioned on 12 January 2012 to the "W3C Federated Social Web Community Group". This group did all the basic work for the Activitypub definitions published 2018 https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/

It appears that in all this meetings Mikes projects were never present. In all this "Federated Social Web" summits and follower up meeting all kinds of protocols, networks, platforms were discussed - but i read never about #Mistpark, #Friendica, #Hubzilla, #DFRN or #ZOT . But Evan and the others DEVs know about Mikes work for sure. For very sure - but they were following their own projects and ideas.

The OStatus support side was hard-coded for only this one instance because the devs believed that identi.ca was a monolithic walled garden just like Twitter.

Evan had always also some kind of businesses modes in mind and he got in August 2010 even $2.3 million. Dollars of Venture capital for the platform #status.net So the whole setting for this #FederatedSocialWeb initiative has to be seen also in this light.

And.... Guess who the chairman of the W3C Social Web Working Community Group was - Evan.

Now ... also the Free Software Foundation (FSF) was also just focused on OStatus and StatusNet. By 2009 a decision of the GNU social steering committee was made to built on top of the OStatus protocol and the StatusNet codebase a project called "GNU social". It's main goal was to deployable with a minimal hosting configuration. So GNU social got on the way and was finally around 2012/13 the successor of Laconica/StatusNet software.

Now we can understand a bit better that DFRN/ZOT/NOMAD projects were never considered later e.g. by the FSF. Today they use of coure Masto, the successor of GNU social.

Somehow the line of projects started with Mistpark got ignored by powerful institutions because advocates and proponent were missing here. In two weeks from today here in Cologne we will have a summit about the chances of free social networks, also organized by the Free Software Foundation Europe

https://fsfe.org/news/2023/news-20230712-01.en.html

One of the speaks will be @Tobias. He has been a follower of Mikes projects since the very early days in 2011 and still is running a Friendica community hub and is working for the FSFE also as system administrator. He should know also a bit about #Hubzilla and #Streams and we can hope for sure that the word about Mike projects will be finally start to be spread :-)

I will report.

im.allmendenetz.de

Giac El Vecio Sep 8, 2023

I think that I see a little confusion, one thing is/was federated social web and another is/was "the federation".. Then people mix a little all the thing and in the last years call the thing "fediverse".

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 8, 2023

@Giac El Vecio Your are around with mike projects since the early years also... you can tell us a lot about that, i would like to hear your visions.

BUT for sure

Diaspora Devs were also part of the "federated social web" initiative by Evan... we are talking here about the very first start of things beyond indenti.ca. That was before the Diaspora Network was called "The Federation" and even before Diaspora was online for regular use.

Evan reported in July 2010:

I was pleasantly surprised when Ilya from Diaspora offered to demo cross-site subscription between Diaspora and StatusNet using OStatus. It was impressive!

Well things did run different later... but that seamed a true option at that time.

The meaning, use and understanding of terms can shift over time that way too

and also what we call today "The Fedivese" is something different than 10 Years ago...

Giac El Vecio Sep 8, 2023

I remember at the time some people were making "federation" drawings, where they put everything they could into, including gnusocial-status.net
and I also remember that things got mixed up several times, how can I say that some people, let's say important people, loved to give/invent their own terms, and include that and exclude the other, therefore, I would say that it is difficult to give a "definition", as define who was right and who was not etc...

Giac El Vecio Sep 8, 2023

Anyway I think the trekker Tobias can give you a lot of details, documents and maybe some of those old drawings and graphs.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 8, 2023

@Giac El Vecio
those old drawings and graphs

even did a ZOT/Nomad update of his graph some time ago

and have other in the archive:
FEDI-graf

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 - [email protected]

Scott M. Stolz Sep 8, 2023

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 It should be noted that Zot6 and Nomad are actually different protocols. Streams supports both Zot6 and Nomad, which is why it can talk to Hubzilla.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 8, 2023

@Scott M. Stolz
It should be noted that Zot6 and Nomad are actually different protocols.

you better ask @Mario Vavti what he things about that..

Scott M. Stolz Sep 8, 2023

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 I asked @Mike Macgirvin about it. He was the one who said they are different protocols.

Or put another way, Zot6 is version 6 of the Zot protocol, and Nomad is equivalent to Zot12. They can't talk to one another since there are enough changes that break compatibility.

I was told that Streams uses Nomad (Zot12) to talk to other Streams servers, and uses Zot6 to talk to Hubzilla.

Giac El Vecio Sep 8, 2023

3 different protocols, but I don't see any (visible) options for now, no button to turn off zot and be alone with nomad.

Giac El Vecio - [email protected]

Scott M. Stolz Sep 8, 2023

@Giac El Vecio
3 different protocols, but I don't see any (visible) options for now, no button to turn off zot and be alone with nomad.
I forgot to mention, if Streams turned off Zot6, then it would communicate with Hubzilla via ActivityPub, in which case you would lose functionality.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 9, 2023

@Scott M. Stolz @Giac El Vecio just edited the top level post regarding ZOT6 and ZOT12 / Nomad

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Sep 8, 2023

@Scott M. Stolz
Streams uses Nomad (Zot12) to talk to other Streams servers, and uses Zot6 to talk to Hubzilla.

thanks - good to know