Mastodawn

What's a skill that's taken for granted where you live, but is often missing in people moving there from abroad?

https://kyu.de/post/1055442

What's a skill that's taken for granted where you live, but is often missing in people moving there from abroad? - kyu

I was thinking about that when I was dropping my 6 year old off at some hobbies earlier - it’s pretty much expected to have learned how to ride a bicycle before starting school, and it massively expands the area you can go to by yourself. When she went to school by bicycle she can easily make a detour via a shop to spend some pocket money before coming home, while by foot that’d be rather time consuming. Quite a lot of friends from outside of Europe either can’t ride a bicycle, or were learning it as adult after moving here, though.

Mudface Sep 2, 2023

In Ontario, it’s often swimming.

Lots of lakes here, children need to be taught to swim

Pea666 Sep 2, 2023

Dutchmen here.

Most, if not all, children learn to swim when they reach age five. Lots of water here, it’s pretty much a basic life/survival skill.

TwanHE Sep 2, 2023

I had swimming as a subject from 7 years old in school here in NL.

aard Sep 2, 2023

That leads to a follow up question to people from different areas: Is swimming a regular part of school sports?

I grew up in Germany with pretty much no lakes, and we had blocks of sports classes in the swimming pool from first grade - didn’t make me a great swimmer, but I can go swim a bit in a lake without having to worry.

Now we’re in Finland (lots of lakes here), and also swimming classes take place from first grade.

TortoiseWrath Sep 2, 2023

American here. The nearest swimming pool to my hometown was in Canada. So no.

aard Sep 2, 2023

How big distances / population are we talking here?

I was growing up in a small village, so in elementary school we went by bus to a nearby village with 7000 inhabitants and a swimming pool.

Now we’re living in a town with a population of 46000 with its own swimming pool.

TortoiseWrath Sep 2, 2023

Yeah, a small village. It would have been a half-hour bus ride to the town of ~5000, but they couldn't compel all students to get a passport, and the nearest pool in the US would have been about an hour and a half away, so it was never part of the curriculum. Some kids had their parents drive them to Canada after school for swimming lessons, but it wasn't standard.

Fosheze Sep 2, 2023

Also american here and I learned to swim before I started preschool. But I also live in the land of 10,000 lakes so it’s basically a requirement here. So this is another one of those things that is going to depend on which state you’re in.

TortoiseWrath Sep 2, 2023

Oh yeah, I make no claim that any of my experiences are anywhere near universal. Basically no part of the American experience is.

SatanicNotMessianic Sep 2, 2023

It’s generally not taught by default in US schools, but some schools offer it as an elective and/or as a competitive sport. Maintaining a swimming pool is an expense that many schools, especially in poorer districts, cannot afford. Outside of schools, there are sometimes community swim classes at places like the YMCA, but those require the parents to be actively involved (like with many extracurricular activities) and usually are an additional expense.

Physical education is usually a mandatory part of US schools through high school (where students graduate at around age 18), and schools often offer students a selection of sports for PE - I did fencing one year and wrestling, gymnastics, and archery other years - but swimming requires more infrastructure than a basketball court and some padded mats.

aard Sep 2, 2023

Physical education is usually a mandatory part of US schools through high school

In Germany the same - but swimming classes are mandated by law from grade 3 onwards, though we started going from grade 1 back then.

hoshikarakitaridia Sep 2, 2023

Maintaining a swimming pool is an expense that many schools, especially in poorer districts can’t afford.

German here: the solution for most of the schools I went to and heard of (elementary) was to get a bus to drive to the next public swimming pool and they’d let us use it for a few hours. The government is funding that. And that solution worked for most of them, although I only managed to get do my swim test after swimming classes in school because I was anxious about it.

AlligatorBlizzard Sep 2, 2023

When I was a kid in Florida in elementary school, that’s what most elementary schools did, mine was next door to a swimming pool so we just walked. At the time I think it actually was mandated by the state - swimming pools in backyards are extremely common there and it was an upsettingly common occurrence for kids to drown in them, so they took a week to make sure we all knew how to tread water. I don’t know if Florida kids still learn how to tread water or if swimming lessons are now woke somehow.

Iron Lynx Sep 3, 2023

NL here. It’s similar here. I remember the bus, our school would hire a coach to take group 3 (think six-year-olds) to swimming at the pool on the other side of town. And until you had at least one diploma, you were required to come along. By group five, everyone had at least a basic swimming diploma.

Call me Lenny/Leni Sep 2, 2023

Not where I am. It never came up, despite water technically being everywhere. People just assume I guess. Still not something I can do.

Pea666 Sep 2, 2023

It used to be part of the school curriculum but it was often after most children had at least learned the basics in swimming classes.

There’s dedicated swimming schools, run by swimming pools and overseen by the government.

MonkderZweite Sep 2, 2023

Same for Swiss. It’s not normal that you can’t swim here.

Call me Lenny/Leni Sep 2, 2023

I am nearby and it never came up for me. I guess they assumed I wouldn’t have any trouble. Too late for me now probably.

funkajunk Sep 2, 2023

I grew up in rural Canada, but have been living in major metropolitan areas for most of my adult life. It still surprises me when I learn there are other adults that don’t know how to chop wood, start a fire, work basic tools, etc.

FleaCatcher Sep 2, 2023

Are chopping wood and starting a fire common activities in the metropolitan area where you live?

Taringano Sep 2, 2023

Suburbia I’m canda just mean the great outdoors

funkajunk Sep 2, 2023

Going to the beach or camping, not unusual to start a bonfire.

BonesOfTheMoon Sep 2, 2023

I have no earthly idea how to do those things and I’m from Canada. It’s also a gender thing if you’re older like me.

valentino Sep 3, 2023

You’re an immigrant or from the city? Everyone from rural areas know how to do it

BonesOfTheMoon Sep 3, 2023

From the city.

TwanHE Sep 2, 2023

It’s cycling here as well in the Netherlands. Additionally in my circles: starting a campfire.

aard Sep 2, 2023

In Germany a lot of people reduced the amount of cycling they did once they had a driving license - now here in Finland a lot more adults keep using bikes, and also use it in Winter. Back in Germany I always was the odd one for cycling in the snow.

Starting a camp fire is something I’m teaching my kids just because I don’t want them to burn my house down - being allowed to play with fire outside along with an explanation of which are the dangerous bits took the fascination out of all the fire starting equipment in the house.

Nowyn Sep 3, 2023

Starting fire is pretty relevant skill in Finland for multiple reasons from saunas to cabins to campfires. While I partially learned at home, scouts are pretty good here and definitely taught me a lot of wilderness and survival skills.

Call me Lenny/Leni Sep 2, 2023

I technically “know how” to start a campfire, but the actual process is too much work. And then when someone does start a campfire, where I live, for some reason they can’t do it without singing the Campfire Song Song. Not something I look forward to.

SpongeBob 'The Campfire Song Song' Sing Along 🏕 | Nick Music

YouTube

Square Singer Sep 2, 2023

Swimming. Here, kids have to take mandatory swimming courses at school. I have quite a few eastern european friends, and they all tell me, that swimming is something that people learn if they want to and if they can afford it, but it’s not learly an universal skill in their countries.

Most people who drown here are actually immigrants, who see everyone swimming and think that it can’t be that hard…

Call me Lenny/Leni Sep 2, 2023

Or in my case they just assume. Which is why I had brush-ins with the experience in the last sentence.

Square Singer Sep 3, 2023

Sounds like you got a story to tell.

Call me Lenny/Leni Sep 3, 2023

Not really stories, just not-good experiences. Had a couple/few moments where someone disagreed with the whole hard thing. I was going along a ledge near water recently and people assumed I had the same floatation magic as everyone else when I was thrust in and even after they (except for someone’s dog) saw what amounted to thrashing. So it works both ways.

Square Singer Oct 12, 2023

That sucks pretty hard.

If you want to, they do offer swimming courses also for adults, at least over here.

It might be worth the investment.

FinalBoy1975 Sep 2, 2023

Just misunderstanding social cues. Where I live (Spain), there’s a script you’re supposed to follow for certain things and newcomers, understandably, don’t understand the script. One famous example is buying new clothes. They all look great on. The idea here is that the poor person spent their hard-earned money on the new clothes. Damned right they look great on! Another would be birthdays celebrated in public venues. Perhaps someone you know is celebrating their birthday in a public venue and you had no idea they were celebrating their birthday on that day. You walk up to them and wish them a happy birthday, BUT you were not invited to this celebration. Since you weren’t invited you did not come prepared with a present for the birthday person. The safe thing to do is to ignore, socialize with the people you came with, and make like that person isn’t even there until they approach YOU. When and if they approach you, you make pretend you’re all distracted and you have to be like, “Ahhh! I didn’t see you! What’s up?” The reason: that person is buying all the invitees the drinks and food. In exchange, the invitees have brought presents. It’s a very nuanced and weird situation all of us have encountered. We err on the fear of not having brought a present because we had no idea because we were not invited.

CassowaryTom Sep 2, 2023

That’s interesting. Would you please further explain the clothes shopping thing? Is it that it is rude for a shopkeeper or, say, the people you may be shopping with to say anything except “That looks great on you”?

FinalBoy1975 Sep 2, 2023

It’s more like after they bought the new clothes. Like, your friend bought new clothes and wants to show you what they bought. It could be a friend, a brother, a sister, a cousin, an aunt, anybody. While shopping for clothes, before they buy the clothes, is the right time to criticize. It’s perfectly acceptable, and desired, to be out shopping and trying on clothes before buying them, to say whatever you like. “That makes your ass look huge, don’t buy that!” is desired, not discouraged. Never trust the salesperson. The employee of the store is going to tell you it all looks good so you buy it, even if it looks bad. They even try to sell you more crap, saying things go together when they don’t. I’m talking about after they bought the clothes and they’re showing you what they bought because you’re their friend or relative or whatever.

CassowaryTom Sep 2, 2023

Got it. That makes way more sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

BottleOfAlkahest Sep 3, 2023

Is it not true in the US too? I wouldn’t tell someone who wasn’t a very close friend that their new outfit looked bad after they’d already bought it. That just sounds like a jerk move even here.

FinalBoy1975 Sep 3, 2023

Yeah, it’s very similar, but at home in the US I can think of a few situations where it might be ok to say it looks bad from my personal life.

thedirtyknapkin Sep 3, 2023

huh, so the implication is that saying it looks good means that you’re passing judgment on the outfit when it would be incorporate? to my American sensibilities when i pay a compliment it’s just to be encouraging. there’s no thought in my head that i might say something negative about it. sometimes it’s like seeing a kitten and going “aww” I just try to let the kind impulse thoughts out intentionally. especially when complimenting my fellow men’s appearance. we don’t get that enough otherwise.

raptir Sep 2, 2023

The birthday thing fascinates me because it’s the exact opposite of how you would handle it in the US. Here you would wish them a happy birthday and then move on since you weren’t invited.

FinalBoy1975 Sep 2, 2023

In the USA, the birthday thing is the best thing about the USA. It’s all about being selfless (I’m American btw, been living in Spain for so long I’m a citizen) and it’s actually something that creates conflict in interpersonal relationships between natives of Spain and the friends they make that are not from here. It is a huge drama that somebody needs to make a documentary film about now. This birthday thing has no age. It could be a 20th birthday or a 100th birthday. You ain’t invited, you didn’t know, you didn’t bring the presents, you just keep to yourself in the public venue. It’s harsh. It’s harsh because you were excluded and you don’t care, because you’re American, you just want to be nice and wish them a happy birthday. Spanish people are all nope on that shit. It’s all about the presents and who bought you the drinks and food.

nevernevermore Sep 3, 2023

are you saying its transactional then? like a social contract of it's my birthday, so I'm paying for my guests food and drink. You, my guest, have accepted that contract by bringing a gift?

This flies in the face of birthdays I'm used to. There's no expectation that If I invite someone to my birthday that a) they need to give me a gift (I would never expect that) or b) I'm paying for their food and drink. I guess because that social contract isn't in place, the idea that someone can come over and say happy birthday isn't a big deal. It's just a gathering that happens to be on my birthday.

FinalBoy1975 Sep 3, 2023

It’s not really transactional. It’s just a situation where you got left out of the birthday and happened to go out to the same place where the birthday is being celebrated. However, it’s interesting to note that there is no such thing as a surprise birthday party. The birthday boy or girl is the one that throws the party because of the reciprocity aspect. You wouldn’t be caught dead attending a birthday without a present for the person whose birthday it is. You also wouldn’t be caught dead letting people bring you birthday presents AND buying you dinner. It’s more like “tit for tat” than “transactional.”

valentino Sep 3, 2023

Lmao wtf is going on with the birthday party one.

FinalBoy1975 Sep 3, 2023

I really think it would be a great movie plot. Could even be a slasher film.

grabyourmotherskeys Sep 2, 2023

Winter driving and shoulder season driving. Snow, ice, black ice, freezing rain, slush, hydroplaning, driveway clearing, walkway maintenance, windshield scraping, and keeping an emergency kit for breakdowns. Stuff like that.

TortoiseWrath Sep 2, 2023

Or driving in general. As an American who didn't get a driver's license until I was 21 due to some reasons, I can attest that many, many people here simply can't comprehend the idea of someone over 17 or so not having one. I got turned away from a hotel once because they didn't know how to use a passport as an ID.

The only other people I've met with this problem were immigrants. And we were always able to bond over lamentations of how difficult it is to solve this problem... the entire system to get a license here is built around the assumption that everyone does it in high school, so every step of the way is some roadblock like "simply drive to your driving test appointment"...

aard Sep 2, 2023

As an American who didn’t get a driver’s license until I was 21 (gasp! so old)

I’m now 41, never made a license - there wasn’t really much of a need until now. I can get anywhere I want with a combination of bicycle and public transport.

folkrav Sep 2, 2023

Guessing you live in or close-ish some kind of urban center? I got my license at 18 cause the closest bus stop from my parents’ place was a 30 minute walk from the closest bus stop, getting literally anywhere useful was at the very minimum another 30 minutes on top of this, and getting downtown was another 45-50 minutes of bus+metro over those last two stretches, assuming no traffic. I currently live 60km outside of town, it’s the exact same story. North America was built for cars, for better or (especially) for worse.

When I moved out of my parents’ place and got an apartment in the city with my wife though, we managed without a car. Bus/metro/walking got us everywhere we needed for every day life, and we used car sharing services when we needed to go out of town.

aard Sep 2, 2023

Currently in Finland - single family home in a town with 46k people. Originally from a 2k village in Germany.

We have two daycares, a school and a grocery store 1km from home - here that kind of stuff is integrated in the neighbourhoods where people live. Many elementary schools, some just grades 1 and 2 - by grade 3 they can already easily travel the longer distance to another school by themselves.

folkrav Sep 2, 2023

Sigh. My town is even larger and more populous than yours… Really discouraging. Jobs in my field (programming) are mostly around town, and it’s too expensive for me to buy there, so unless I manage to stay remote indefinitely, I’ll never be able to buy lol

dirkgentle Sep 2, 2023

North America was built by the train, it was later destroyed for the car.

folkrav Sep 2, 2023

Yaaaaaayyyy

Illegal_Prime Sep 3, 2023

You’d be surprised how for you can stretch ANY transit infrastructure. I despise the resignation that North America was “built for cars” you’ll find people-centric places all over the country, both in cities and rural areas too. The biggest issue is that a lot of rural areas lack transit service, but fixing that would be relatively inexpensive. Unfortunate anywhere without transit is inaccessible to disabled people such as myself who are incapable of operating their own vehicle, so this is something we need to work on.

Most places were built for people, not cars. But many weee, and even more were demolished for them. But saying that North American cities were designed for cars ignores much of the history of North American urban development.

Either way, if a place isn’t transit accessible, it might as well not exist. Though I must stress that it is NOT difficult to make something transit accessible.

folkrav Sep 3, 2023

IMHO that’s kind of a simplistic view. Let’s take my town for example. Going down to Montreal on a bus takes 1h45 alone, so that’s not remotely an option. So next best option is bus + train, but closest train station is a 20-25min bus drive. So unless they manage to rezone and displace a bunch of people to lay another handful of kilometers of tracks through agricultural and residential land, new trains in my area won’t happen, therefore my best option will always remain bus+train. And it’s far anyway.

All decent transit around here covers areas I’ll never be able to afford to buy in. Or I could rent forever, I guess. Point is, everything is so freaking far apart around here that land based transit just doesn’t cut it. It takes way too long to get anywhere to get a viable option for anything but short distances. I used to live on one end of Montreal’s island… It took me 1h30 to get downtown by public transit. 3h+ a day sitting my ass on a bus/train/metro. That’s not acceptable. And I lived inside the city.

Agent_of_Kayos Sep 3, 2023

Which is also better for the environment and a perfectly fine way to live. I think more people should be like that

floofloof Sep 3, 2023

I moved to the USA and then Canada as an adult. I had never needed to learn to drive in my home country because there were decent buses and trains. But you really can’t function easily in North America without driving a car, so I had to learn and start polluting like everyone else. It’s not a good setup.

Naja Kaouthia Sep 2, 2023

Was a bit of a learning curve for me, having moved from subtropical Florida to Colorado the land of eternal winter. I bought a Subaru.