tempestuousknaveIs picking a lock harder than it should be?
Thanks for the good input everybody.
(at least) 2 things I was missing: Replacement picks being 3SP/negligible bulk, and critical successes.
I think Merwyn has an excellent point about the rolls being excessive when there’s no time constraints, but I could see how the rolling could build tension when the rogue is trying to break into a dockside warehouse and the paladin is trying to distract the nightwatchman.
The gaminess of pick tracking is not fun, but I’d just say to buy a hundred, and instead of measuring them in qty measure them in the extra round lost fishing a replacement from your pack.
KoboldCoterieI think taking a minute to pick an average lock, or 2 minutes to pick a good lock is pretty reasonable, personally. What’s weird is the fact that in PF1 / D&D, it can be done in 6 seconds, most of the time. That’s just inhumanly fast. If you break a pick (at a cost of 3sp, assuming common tools and that you just replace the pick rather than bothering to try to repair it), that’s not really a big deal - any rogue worth their salt should be carrying spare picks, anyway.
Is it realistic to expect to break a pick on 60% of lock you pick? No, not really, but this is a game, and we already do a lot of things that are unrealistic. As a GM, if I had a player complaining about this, I’d consider letting them take longer to pick the lock (perhaps doubling or tripling the completion time) in exchange for the threshold to critically fail being slightly lower (by 5 points or so), to represent more meticulous work in an effort to specifically avoid breaking tools - but really, the cost is so minimal, I don’t really see any reason that this should be needed (except in a case where picks are for whatever reason not readily available, and where time is no real object, such as picking the lock on shackles or something.)
It’s a pretty realistic expectation for a mediocre locksmith in the real world faced with the average door lock. It’s a bit slow for the fantasy expert lock picking thief who’s invested their ability and skill increases to excel at a mundane and achievable task. But time spent is the smaller issue.
And it’s 3 gp a thieves tool set, but the bigger issue is bulk. God forbid you’ve a dozen doors with good locks in a dungeon, that’s 4 bulk worth of picks to get through–pretty much the thiefs whole inventory–and a 50 percent chance of ultimate failure (not to mention 240d20). Pretty rough on the class fantasy. If nothing else I’d change the names of the locks to pad the thief ego: poor becomes average, average good, good master and master legendary. I don’t want my player stymied by an average door because he only brought one backup toolkit.
Thieve tools are 3Gp but replacement picks are 3sp. Also, the tools are light bulks, and the replacement pick don’t even list a bulk.
Merwyn already pointed out that replacement picks are cheap and weightless. Regarding the number of dice, every PF2 campaign I’ve been a part of (which is two, so a pretty small sample size) has just had the rogue roll for each tumbler right up front. Need 5 successes, roll 5 dice. If any of them are a critical success, it offsets a critical failure (in addition to counting for two tumblers as normal); otherwise, each critical failure = -1 replacement pick. It’s meant on average 2-3 sets of rolls per lock, rather than 7-8, and keeps things moving at a fine clip.
To me the time requirement looks fine. There is examples of super skilled people on YouTube who can pick good locks in less time than a round in pf, but they obviously are legendary.
My issue is the chance to break locks. That part seems unrealistic (even for a fantasy world) and it just add something to keep track of in a “video game” style.
My other issue is that from a gameplay perspective, if there is no ongoing fight and we are not in encounter mode, I don’t see at all the point to make so many rolls and require several successes. I would be more inclined to a system with a lower DC and where the difference between your roll and a dc determine the time you spend to open it. I am kind of homebrewing it this way in my campaign, but I was not very consistent with my ruling for this … I should think about it and write it somewhere.
To me the time requirement looks fine. There is examples of super skilled people on YouTube who can pick good locks in less time than a round in pf, but they obviously are legendary.
My issue is the chance to break picks. That part seems unrealistic (even for a fantasy world) and it just add something to keep track of in a “video game” style.
My other issue is that from a gameplay perspective, if there is no ongoing fight and we are not in encounter mode, I don’t see at all the point to make so many rolls and require several successes. I would be more inclined to a system with a lower DC and where the difference between your roll and a dc determine the time you spend to open it. I am kind of homebrewing it this way in my campaign, but I was not very consistent with my ruling for this … I should think about it and write it somewhere.
In the end, if your players agree to a little homebrew, it’s up to the GM to tweak the rules to fit the story. Are they trying to pick a lock while being chased with enemies dozen of meters behind ? Then it’s important to clearly define how many rounds are needed and I would make a check per rounds. Otherwise, if they are calmly trying to open something without stress and with all the tools required, just make one check and determine the time spend (if it’s relevant) from the result.
Are they in a dire situation with only one precious pick and without possibility to find more ? Then it’s important to follow the rules to break it, otherwise just handwave it.
VindictiveJudgeMy other issue is that from a gameplay perspective, if there is no ongoing fight and we are not in encounter mode, I don’t see at all the point to make so many rolls and require several successes.
Isn’t that why old editions of D&D let you take 20 on a lot of out-of-combat things? I’m still not sure why that was removed from both D&D and Pathfinder.
Exactly. Take 20 when there is no consequence of failure and plenty of time. Take 10 when there is plenty of time and no stresfull environment.