Diego NavarroAug 26, 2023
πšƒπšŠπš›πšŠπšœ π™Άπš›πšŽπšœπšŒπš˜πšŽ πŸš‡

Walt Disney World has significantly better transit than most cities in the US.

Its 12-train-set monorail, 325 buses would make it the 16th most ridden transit system in the nation.

America's fantasy world, it turns out, is a place you can get around without getting into a car. 🧡

Aug 25, 2023 at 7:32pmWeb
Show threadπšƒπšŠπš›πšŠπšœ π™Άπš›πšŽπšœπšŒπš˜πšŽ πŸš‡Aug 25, 2023
"While real trolleys languish for lack of patronage...people flock to Disneyland to ride fake trolleys."
β€”historian Kenneth Jackson, author of Crabgrass Frontier.
Show threadπšƒπšŠπš›πšŠπšœ π™Άπš›πšŽπšœπšŒπš˜πšŽ πŸš‡Aug 25, 2023

The real American Dream:

Transit that works, at Disneyland.

Show threadπšƒπšŠπš›πšŠπšœ π™Άπš›πšŽπšœπšŒπš˜πšŽ πŸš‡Aug 25, 2023

I dig deeper into the relationship between Fantasylands like Disney and Vegas and transit in this Straphanger dispatch:

https://straphanger.substack.com/p/arriving-in-las-vegas

Arriving in Las Vegas.

And leaving, rather abruptly.

Straphanger, from Taras Grescoe
Show threadInken Paper πŸ‡΅πŸ‡ΈAug 26, 2023
@straphanger you can also ride that kind of train in Vancouver or Toronto. Montreal sort of counts too probably. Calgary is the only other city out of these that has a long-functioning rail transit system. all of the other cities in canada ripped out their local rails in 1959, if the companies owning them hadn't already been driven to failure.
Show threadI ❀️ PlacemakingAug 25, 2023
@straphanger If you look at the dedication of that book, Jackson tragically lost a son to an automobile accident, which always shapes my reading of it.
Show threadNeil RobertsonAug 25, 2023
@straphanger
And yet each of the parks and hotels have MASSIVE parking lots.
Show threadCrossbowAug 26, 2023
@nightscotsman @straphanger Yes, because you can't ride mass transit from your house to Disney.
Show threadHugo ι›¨ζžœAug 26, 2023
@Crossbow @nightscotsman @straphanger So how do people get there?
Show threadCrossbowAug 26, 2023
@whynothugo @nightscotsman If they fly to Orlando, most rent a car. And a huge number drive from wherever they live.
Show threadNeil RobertsonAug 26, 2023
@Crossbow @straphanger
You absolutely can. I’ve been several times and never with a car. Plane or train to Orlando, shuttle bus to hotel, and Disney’s excellent transportation network on property. People waste money renting a car because it’s what they’re used to and think they can’t live without it.
Show threadCrossbowAug 26, 2023

@nightscotsman @straphanger Oh, I do WDW several times a year and never get a rental car, but I also never leave the property. Most people vacationing want to hit Universal, the beach, etc. So they rent a car.

Carless is possible, but it's just not the default in the US.

Show threadDominic πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Aug 27, 2023
@Crossbow @nightscotsman @straphanger There is also a peculiarly American β€œcar brain”. I used to travel frequently to an office in San Jose, which had a tram stop right in front. There was another tram stop in front of our hotel, so of course I rode the tram: 25’ trip, $1 or $2 (it’s been a while), and even WiFi on board. US colleagues all rented cars, paid $35 for valet parking, and sat in traffic for an hour or more each way. πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
Show threadBen Keith 🚲Aug 25, 2023
@straphanger Do you know where I can find a GTFS feed or shapefile of the WDW monorails and bus lines?
Show threadTico ο£Ώ Aug 25, 2023
@straphanger @danwentzel
It’s reliable, efficient and most of all safe!!
Show threadPJD65Aug 26, 2023
@straphanger Awesome map, but the Skyliner isn't included. It's been a wonderful addition to Disney World transportation options.
Show threadsmartwatermelon Aug 26, 2023
@PJD65 @straphanger I immediately zoomed in to look for the Skyliner. Since it opened, Art of Animation is now my number one resort choice. You can get to Epcot or the Studios in minutes.
Show threadPJD65Aug 26, 2023
@smartwatermelon @straphanger For us, it's Pop. We have stayed there every trip since the Skyliner opened. We particularly like being able to easily hop over to Epcot for dinner at whatever festival is running.
Show threadMichael BorlandAug 26, 2023
@PJD65 @smartwatermelon @straphanger We’ll be there next weekend and my wife booked us at Caribbean Beach so we could use the Skyliner.
Show threadSteven LiptonAug 26, 2023
@straphanger and I have done disneyworld dozens of times without a car. When Magic Express was running, total extra transportation costs were $0.
Show threadGrinch-stanAug 26, 2023
@straphanger Wait, i could have sworn somebody told me public transit wasn't cost effective or efficient? πŸ€”
Show threadA Slightly Orange CatAug 26, 2023
@Karstan @straphanger Although I admire the WDW transportation system, in fairness it should be noted that the resort operates it as a way to keep visitors on the property instead of visiting other attractions. This creates an incentive to invest that most municipalities don't have.
Show threadJocelynephiliac Aug 26, 2023

@mbrailer which makes me ask β€œwhy not?” Tax revenue is tax revenue. Keeping people in the area means more money for businesses and higher property values.

@Karstan @straphanger

Show threadA Slightly Orange CatAug 26, 2023

@twipped @Karstan @straphanger I don't think the WDW transportation system is funded by taxes. While the roads are maintained by the special taxing district*, the buses, boats, monorails and sky gondolas are operated by WDW itself.

WDW runs them at a loss because doing so helps the resort monopolize tourists' time. Most mass transit systems don't have that advantage, because taxpayers hate subsidizing things they don't use.

(* and WDW is the largest taxpayer in the district.)

Show threadInken Paper πŸ‡΅πŸ‡ΈAug 26, 2023
@Karstan @straphanger here's the thing: it's not really public if it's behind a gate and costs a day's pay to cross that gate.
Show threadGrinch-stanAug 26, 2023

@crashglasshouses @straphanger Agreed! I believe that's the underlying premise to the point being made by OP. People are willing to pay a lot of money to access this place that has this kind of transport.

And what I was intending to imply with my tongue-in-cheek joke is that Disney has a financial incentive to implement the most cost effective and efficient transportation in their private little fiefdom. They could have chosen something like golf-carts for everyone on little highways.

Show threadInken Paper πŸ‡΅πŸ‡ΈAug 26, 2023
@Karstan @straphanger omg what chaos and carnage that would be, if they let people drive golf carts all over Disney World. they can barely drive normal cars on normal streets.
Show threadInken Paper πŸ‡΅πŸ‡ΈAug 27, 2023

@Karstan @straphanger

i wonder if the people who said "let's build trains" at Disney World first thought "we could have themed golf carts running on a track all over... wait, that's a train, let's just build trains."

Show threadOpenDNAβš™οΈAug 26, 2023
@straphanger FYI: I posted a screen cap of your post to NUMTOT.
Show threadTim ChumaAug 26, 2023
@straphanger They wouldn't have it if it didn't make them money. Supposedly in California people look at you funny if you walk anywhere
Show threadThe Skeptic's Book of ListsAug 26, 2023

@straphanger "We limit cars in our world and people happily pay for the privilege to live car free here."

Actually sounds a lot like Singapore.

Show threadAnna NicholsonAug 26, 2023

@straphanger Reasonable public transport or not (and it’s shocking that this outdoes most US cities!), I don’t think I could bear to set foot in this or any Disney theme park! πŸ™€

By the way, considering how litigious Disney are about their intellectual property, it seems a bit rich for them to be using the London Transport (now TfL) roundel here πŸ˜‰

I wonder if Disney bothered to ask for permission: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/suppliers-and-contractors/using-tfl-brand-ip

Using TfL brand IP

Design standards for print and display, new media toolkit, map licencing, fonts and logos

Transport for London
Show threadMichael Bonnett, Jr.Aug 26, 2023
@transponderings @straphanger FWIW… That map wasn’t created by Disney. It says as much at the bottom.
Show threadPaul HouleAug 26, 2023

@straphanger Disney was famous for his urbanism and criticism of traffic. His original plan for Epcot to be a real city, but to build something that radical he had to figure out some way to deny residents the vote. Here's an astonishing documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKYEXjMlKKQ

Defunctland: Walt Disney's City of the Future, E.P.C.O.T.

YouTube
Show threadAjax B. CorianderAug 26, 2023

@straphanger they also have a sky gondola now :D

And a lot of boat transport too.

Show threadJocelynephiliac Aug 26, 2023
@straphanger is there a larger version of this image somewhere? I’m having trouble zooming in on the key
Show threadJBAug 28, 2023
@twipped @straphanger https://www.wdwfocus.com/map/transportation/
Walt Disney World Transportation Map

Unofficial transportation map of the Walt Disney World Resort in Florida, showing buses, trains, boats and monorails, between the 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, Downtown Disney and Disney resorts.

Walt Disney World Transportation Map
Show threadJocelynephiliac Aug 28, 2023
@jbsegal @straphanger ooo, and this appears to be newer. Thank ya!
Show threadRagnell the Mildly UnpleasantAug 26, 2023
@straphanger They've been trying to sell us this Suburban House Two Car Three Kids thing for decades, but in reality the American Dream is a townhouse in a walkable city where you can sit outside a book-filled cafe with all your other single friends, drink coffee and access free wifi.
Show threadShaun (he/ him)Aug 26, 2023

@straphanger @wesley wow.... That's really wild! I always failed to catch the irony of how good they built and managed transit.

My next question is "how do they fund it? And what can we as urbanists learn from that funding model?"

Show threadAdeptVeritatisAug 26, 2023

@straphanger

I wouldn't want to live in a city with public transport like this.

Way too complicated. No general concept, just endlessly added additional lines. No idea, how to get from A to B without taking the "From A to B" bus.

This may seem different, when being there. But the map itself is unreadable. And I like reading such maps.

Show threadSt. ChrisAug 26, 2023
@AdeptVeritatis It is better when you’re there. This isn’t a Disney-made map β€” they wouldn’t make their visitors decipher something like this.
Show threadPeter MerholzAug 26, 2023
@straphanger Defunctland's video on EPCOT makes very clear that Walt thought cars were a problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKYEXjMlKKQ&ab_channel=Defunctland
Defunctland: Walt Disney's City of the Future, E.P.C.O.T.

YouTube
Show threadDavid πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆπŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈNB they/themAug 26, 2023
@straphanger And all at no cost to riders.
Show threadSLCWπŸ’₯Aug 26, 2023
@straphanger It has to do with motivations and resources. Disney is a commercial enterprise with a direct profit motive for providing excellent transportation services. Public transportation, on the other hand, is publicly funded and built to operate as cheaply as possible without a profit motive. Those differences result in vastly different executions.
Show threadMagnus AhltorpAug 26, 2023
@slcw @straphanger If you have income from both ticket sales and taxes you have more resources than if you only have ticket sales. The difference is the total lack of will from politicians of slightly inconveniencing car drivers, even when it ultimately makes car driving better (fewer cars on the road).
Show threadSLCWπŸ’₯Aug 26, 2023
@ahltorp @straphanger Ticket sales and taxes applied to the public transit barely break even. It's definitely not a money maker for the state or local municipality. A company like Disney, on the other hand, can afford to build and operate a superior system because of the value it adds to their primary profit driver. The dynamics are just completely different from a public transit system. Public transit could be excellent if not for the politicians who view it as a begrudging expense.
Show threadMagnus AhltorpAug 26, 2023
@slcw @straphanger Those dynamics apply to municipalities as well. Fewer cars on the roads means less costs for roads. Less sprawl means less costs for plumbing. More density means more taxes per area.
Show threadUncle CharlieAAug 26, 2023
@straphanger that was supposed to be the system of the future. How many cities adopted Monorail systems?
Show threadRick EkleAug 26, 2023
@straphanger Disney is incredibly good at taking your money. A good transit system helps to get you to WHERE they can take your money even faster!
Show threadarifellAug 26, 2023
@straphanger
#waroncars
Show threadNekodojoAug 26, 2023
@straphanger
Oh come on, next you’re going to tell me they did all this without raising fares??
Show threadcontinuousorbitAug 26, 2023
@straphanger - In Florida, no less.
Show threadJon SchwennAug 26, 2023
@straphanger it’s hard to zoom in, but it doesn’t look like that map has the sky liner gondola system on it (?)
Show threadgregatron5Aug 26, 2023
@straphanger @siracusa And despite the fact they have a lovely bus system full of well kept busses that works wonderfully, everyone wishes they had more monorails.
Show threadVortechAug 26, 2023
@straphanger @siracusa That’s an old version. Here’s a link to the creator who has it updated to include the Skyliner and other updates. https://www.wdwfocus.com/map/transportation/
Walt Disney World Transportation Map

Unofficial transportation map of the Walt Disney World Resort in Florida, showing buses, trains, boats and monorails, between the 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, Downtown Disney and Disney resorts.

Walt Disney World Transportation Map
Show threadMichael KatzAug 26, 2023
@straphanger @siracusa think of all the amazing "acu-hires" when Apple buys Disney.
Show threadJake MillerAug 26, 2023
@straphanger I love transit, but one notable point about this system is how it tends to connect hotels to parks, restricting free movement. I attended a conference at Disney properties, and getting from Coronado to the Boardwalk area is a massive ordeal since you need to go elsewhere first. The conference ran its own bus loop between hotels. But the system is great to go from residential to commercial…
Show threadHeath BordersAug 26, 2023
@straphanger I think @nerd4cities should do a video on the best theme park transit systems and how their ridership compares with NA cities
Show threadAndrewAug 26, 2023
@straphanger @siracusa Because private sector > government.
Show threadMiveyAug 27, 2023
@straphanger I think that's just Disney acknowledging that the idea of a functioning public transit system is about as fantastical in the US as all the other Disney attractions in there