SucukIs it (still) worth trying to switch my family and friends from WhatsApp to Signal? (Read all of it, please.)
This may sound a bit dumb, but eh.... #signal
anon5621Can i ask why exactly signal?
Well, it's more privacy-focused, feels like home, and it's not hard to get used to and it's not a data-hungry company like Meta or Google. Also Other platforms i tested didn't really fit right with me.
Well,I am quite suspicious just about signal as company.And have some reasons for that.
- First. blacklistednews.com/…/how-cia-created-signal-mess…
- Second this is quite strange bug which was sending random photo sent random images from the gallery to the user’s contacts github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/10247
- Third they are betraying idea to free/open source signal.org/blog/keeping-spam-off-signal/
- Fourth Messenger Signal reported that it leaked phone numbers and confirmation codes of 1.9 thousand users. This happened due to the hacking of the Twilio database, which checks numbers. support.signal.org/hc/en-us/…/4850133017242
- Fifth From new president of Signal was required to remove the registration by phone number by users.But nothing happened community.signalusers.org/t/…/622?page=29 under reasons they are fighting with spam–
OsrsNeedsF2POkay, but what else are they gonna use? Matrix?
yeah,or matrix or xmpp
I do not have the knowledge, time or money to set up my own servers for those sadly. And it would probably take time for my family to adjust to those.
Matrix doesn’t require you to set up a server.
SimpleX, briar, session, Jami, Cwtch, … There are plenty of alternatives these days.
TCB13And… people are gonna say you’re spreading false information in 3,2,1…
Hmm, good points.
Most of these have some kind of (strong or weak) counter-arguments.
I have mixed thoughts about the first point, they kinda have some good points though.2 and 4 got resolved, very critical issues nonetheless, shouldn't have happened. The 3rd point seems kinda OK, I'm sure they would like the idea of making that open-source, but that would probably make it bypassable, correct me if im wrong. I didn't know about the fifth! The reason they gave also seems defenseless.
Not trying to hate or back up Signal here, just my opinions.
southsamuraiThere’s no reason you can’t open source anti spam. The only reasons not to do so are that it’s either absurdly to bypass if it’s known, which makes it useless, or if they don’t want it visible.
Why wouldn’t they want extra eyes on it? That’s how a lot of vulnerabilities get found, people actually checking the code and testing it.
That suggests some other reason, and they haven’t said (that I’m aware of). Since that means that part can’t be trusted, you can’t trust the rest of it either. That isn’t to say you can’t choose to use it, but you’re using it blind, which makes it no more secure or private than telegram or any other options.
Hmm, yeah true. More people can take a look at the code, find vulnarabilities and fix it. Then it should be open-source too, since it would also be hard to bypass even if that happened. So there's not really an argument to not make it open-source.
dan1101If they don’t care about privacy you don’t have any argument for them to switch. I don’t think you can argue that Signal is better functionally than WhatsApp, it just has better privacy.
They do still have an argument for them to switch. "if you want to message me here is how you can do it. I don't use whatsapp". No need to convince them, they can either switch or not send you messages.
That’s valid but a gamble.
I think it is difficult for others to tell you whether it is “worth it”, because that is very personal.
For me, personally, transferring my family and friends to Signal is not worth it because Signal requires a phone number. If I will invest such an effort, I would rather help them migrate to a service that does not require a phone number - such as Matrix or an XMPP server. But needing a phone number to register might not be a problem for you - in which case Signal could be a perfectly reasonable choice.
But… Even then - is it worth it? Again, it is up to you. I tried, but my success has been limited. The reality is that I still have a phone with WhatsApp that I leave at home and I check it every day or two. I tell people that if they want to reach me, the best is to use e-mail. And to my closest friends and some of my family I did convince them to use my XMPP chat so that we can be connected more often. No one really left WhatsApp, but at least we can have some fun conversations on our own server, which is nice.
But I am not going to lie, I am sacrificing a ton of functionality and convenience. For me, this is worth it because I think that it is GOOD not to be available through the phone all the time, and I am idealist when it comes to not giving big companies our data. But for some people these sacrifices might be unsustainable, and it might not be worth it.
So: I don’t know. Maybe it’s worth it?
EliseHere in the NL it’s almost like some kind of privatized utility. It’s used for sensitive things too.
A while ago there was an audit: Lo and behold the backups weren’t e2ee. What ever happened to warrants?
Well I just told everyone I’m switching a few years back and that’s that. And actually a lot of people switched because they preferred it over email and SMS.
Exactly, just stop using it yourself and let others know how they can still contact you. If they aren't willing to do that they aren't worth talking to in the first place.
To be fair I did have to install discord to stay in contact with a good friend. It’s such a piece of junk I don’t see what she likes about it, but ahh well.
"I will only talk to you if you use discord" doesn't sound like a good friend to me but if that works for you go for it.
Haha yea people can be all up in arms about nothing. And I’m sure my behavior appears the same to them. She’s one of the most amazing people I know, incredibly kind and patient, and has always supported me in many ways.
I was in a similar spot and gave up before starting. This is due to several reasons: 1) My circle of relatives and friends, like yours, neglect their privacy and would not engage with me in a serious conversation regarding it; 2) educational institutions, businesses, organisations and even governmental bodies may rely on WhatsApp for communications; and 3) the two big telecom monopolies offer enticing mobile data deals for using WhatsApp.
While I am not saying you should give up, you should go for modest goals (e.g. converting your close family to signal when chatting together) and eliminate optimistic expectations so you don’t get crushed.
I gave up after about 7 years of trying. The few people I had using it won’t use it anymore since Signal dropped sms. Best I have been able to do now is talk to people with iMessage.
The few people I had using it won’t use it anymore since Signal dropped sms. Best I have been able to do now is talk to people with iMessage.
Well that’s odd, as iOS Signal never supported SMS, and Android phones don’t support iMessage, only SMS.
The family using Signal were on Android. The people on ios refused to ever use anything other than iMessage.
I can talk to them with iMessage as always and the Android people are now sms only after they left Signal. They said it’s too confusing to text on different apps so they dropped down to their default sms.
Chemical WonkaI don’t use WhatsApp since 2017 If someone wants to talk to me it must download Signal or no deal.
FarLine99Harsh, but effective. I chose a slightly softer strategy. I communicate with family/friends on Signal, and for work/with strangers on Telegram. WhatsApp is a thing of the past. Quit there and told everyone that I won’t answer there anymore. Trash.
I second this, highly effective method that I strongly recommend, deleted WA and I’m now only on TG
WhatsApp is such garbage. No normal privacy, no convenience, no normal backups, no features. Just such a mmmeeehhhhh
Indeed and they have been slowly copying TG, that’s good but it won’t make it a privacy-respecting IM app, also on the topic of backups unlike TG WA offers the option to E2E encrypt the backups but IMO they should enable it by default with no option to disable it, it won’t push users away and if TG were to make E2EE the default this would make the backup process less convenient not as “seamless” as TG want it to be, we would have to save the password of our backups or maybe we could use our fingerprint instead something like passkeys but this is a very minor inconvenience for us privacy advocates
GoldmasterI think it’s worth it.
Just simply send a link along with that’s generally better and that lots of people are moving over. Watomatic could be looked into as a way to automatically remind people you are on signal when they go to Facebook you. It would then prompt then to install signal.
I take the attitude if they want to contact me either, phone, email or text.
rnercle👆 this may help to convince some of the obstinate fecesbook/shatsApp users
You definitely should still mak every effort to get people on to Signal, even if they have both apps on their phone, so at least you can keep all of your conversations and phone calls 100% private and secure.
You must grant them the freedom to se Whatsapp with other people if they insist on keeping it or don’t want to learn about privacy, but for contacting you, you do have a right to speak to them and say you are using Signal now for messaging and calling, and state that you prefwr or you decided to not use Whatsapp anymore, you can explain why if you decide to them.
I know someone who only uses Whatsapp with absoutely everybody, but for me, they csll me on Signal or message me through Signal.
About a year ago I got someone else on to Signal, and as soon as they installed it rhey saw how many of their contacts from back home are already on Signal but they never knew others were already using it.
You have no say what other people do, but you do have control over your own privacy and anybody that contacts you. The mission is not to get others to remove Whatsapp, the mission is for you to be able to talk privately, like through Signal.
SumeI got my mom to switch. Well, made her too. Sent her a link to install it and just said “It’s like Whatsapp, but no Facebook” along with “Keep Whatsapp for your old contacts”.
Reis öncelikle ismine hayran kaldım. Ve hayır aileni ve arkadaşlarını signale gecirmeye calisma, denesende olmaz.herkes whatsapp kullanıyor, her türlü whatsapp kullanman ve kullanmaları gerekicek.
Ama belki matrix e bakabilirsin, yakin arkadaşların ve ailen icin bir server kurabilirsin. Gizlilik konusunda da daha iyi olur signale kıyasen. Hatta xmpp daha iyi olur ama fazla uğrastirabilir.
Bu arada turklerin takildigi bir yer varsa fediverse te, yazarsan sevinirim. Hayırlı geceler.
And… people are gonna say you’re spreading false information in 3,2,1…
Hocam öncelikle eyvallah. :D Ama ben başladığım işi bitiremeden içime huzur girmez. Annem ile Signal'den yazışıyoruz bile. :D
[Matrix]/XMPP güzel seçenekler, kendi sunucum olursa zaten gizlilik benim elimde olur ama o konularda hiç bilgim yok. Olsaydı bile sunucu için param yok, kendi bilgisayarım kötü ve ailemin öyle bir öyle bir ortama alışabileceğini sanmıyorum.
Verdiğin linke benzer bir şeyler okumuştum, bazı iyi noktaları var ama çoğunun karşı-argümanları (tam doğru kelimeyi bulamadım) var çoğunun. Tabii bazıları hala önemini koruyor ve kritik noktalar.
Hayırlı geceler diliyorum.
Your main concern I believe is to move your relatives/friends there. And for work, communication with strangers you can use your usual messengers. This way you don’t lose opportunities in your career, but you protect the most sensitive information. You can tell your relatives/friends that you will not talk to them on the phone in other messengers. It is also an effective tactic.
I am using signal with my wife and 2-3 closed friends for 3 years now. The problem with signal is that you need a phone number. Now i am using SimpleXchat which is a decentralized messenger and i believe is the future of privacy chats. Its hard to convience people to switch their daily chat app, but if tou do it i would say go with SimpleXchat.
Tried it about a month ago, it felt barebones so I deleted it but it's quickly updating, might check it again!
I was a very early adopter of Signal. I was using it before it was called Signal, and the voice calls used a separate app. I had also been following Moxies’s work for some years prior on a Firefox extension. I got almost all my friends and family to use it, and I use it everyday.
Now though, I’m looking for a good alternative and no longer evangelize it. I don’t believe conspiracy theories about Signal, but the persistent phone number requirement and the recent dropping of support for SMS in android has me looking towards a future with a different protocol.
Unfortunately, I don’t think there exists yet the perfect alternative. The closest I’ve found for my needs is Matrix, but it isn’t smooth enough for me to pressure my contacts into using it.
Yeah, they drop sms support, but still use numbers. It’s pretty dumb
Do you know about simplex chat? What do you think about it?
I have it. Seems like the best of the bunch so far. I don’t use it much since I haven’t got any friends on it. I like that it’s getting updated on fdroid all the time!
Phone number requirement is there to avoid spam, isn’t it? How else would you do it?
Huh? I don’t get spam on xmpp or on matrix, neither of which require phone numbers. I’m pretty sure Signal’s main argument for phone numbers is to make it easier for people to find each other.
Great but just like with mastodon you have to find a public server that you trust and this will stop a lot of users from using yet. To stop spam you can do two things: make sing up more complicated or tie accounts to something that’s not free, like a phone number. One is better for privacy the other is better for discoverability. Matrix is good for technically aware people but for general public you need something simple, like Signal.
I hear you. I still think Signal is a great project, and I use it daily. It has flaws, and the alternatives mentioned have flaws. As I said, I’m not recommending the alternatives (yet) for general public, but I am actively looking for something that is polished enough for non-technical people, but addresses my concerns with Signal. Like I said, I also haven’t seen spam being much of an issue on xmpp or matrix, despite pretty easy signups. As far as trusting a server, lots of people don’t trust the closed, centralized Signal server. At least with xmpp/matrix you have choices which include some cool organizations— or you could run it yourself.
If the people you know and care about use it, you don’t need WA. Plus, it trains them in it. You cannot always change the world, but you can change your part of it.
You don’t need to, as facebook, messenger , whatsapp, imessage, and Telegram will be forced by the EU to interoperate with Signal and other messengers in about six months. (for now only text chat no voip in sight)
do you have a source for this?
cool, thanks for sharing.
Would Google Duo also need to interoperate? (Or did they remove the allo from duo again, or what was the text chat app again?)
I don’t know which google product they will make interoperate. what I know is that google is already working on implementing this. Teams will probably made to. in the early stages, I read that one criteria to be designated a gate keeper is to have more than 50 million users.
If this ends up to be implemented it’s literally my best opportunity to stop using propietary apps without losing the ability to interact with friends/people using them.
GushWHAT, I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS
Look up the DMA, it goes well beyond just messaging apps.
TiritibambixI didn’t know that :o
Would you have a relevant link to share so I can learn more about it please ?